Microsoft makes Visual Studio Express Free!!!

[Malaperth]

Apart from all of this, I don't like how RunUo is structured at all.. I think it doesn't have an appropriate architecture, too many classes put into the same namespace with not too much coherency.

That is very much an insult, and yes, it is your opinion. It also insinuates that you are qualified to fully judge the entire architecture of RunUO, which also means that you could have done it better.

I did not tell you to do anything. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mention how insulting your opinion sounds.

I guess I must apologize for bringing your family into this, however, that could, in no way be considered an insult to your mother.

Anyway I just acknoledge that: you don't like any comment which doesn't agree with yours.

And I fail to see how your statement there could be anything but an insult since I made no such insinuation about your comments. I simply pointed out that criticism is useless when it basically says "Your work sucks and I can do it better." which is very much what your 'opinion' said, if not in quote, in meaning.

[Courageous]

Well... number one. Neither namespaces nor file organization are "architecture" in any systems engineering methodology I've ever heard of.

C//

[arul]

Well I'm sorry to see how personally you take my opinion.. I didn't offend *you* did I?

No, you didn't. You'd have to do much more to offend me

Is this forum for those who love C# only?

Nope. Do you know that .Net isn't only C#? C# is merely a flagship of .net, a decent flagship methinks, but there are much more languages you can utilize for your project ( C++, VB.Net, Chrome, Ruby, Smalltalk, Python and so forth ).

I'm not touched by what you say.. and by the way, yes, I actually happened to develop quite serious things, though not entire game servers.. by "serious" I mean: structured with reasonable design principles taken from software engineering.

It wasn't meant to touch you in any way, I was just stating bare facts with a little dose of sarcasm.

I don't see OOP's potential fully used in RunUo architecture and I don't like C# as a language, dunno if I offend you or not. You surely attempted to do that.

Like I said earlier, you did not offend me, and if you take one's frank treating as an attempt to offend you, I'm sorry then.
Besides, if you say that you don't like C#, how many lines did you write in it? And how many you did in Java?

By the way, after decrypting your language, try learn to be polite with ppl around you.

I swear I'll try! Honestly, I won't...

Just a sidenote, I have defended Java here against people who have been saying that Java must die. If you go back few pages back in this thread, you'll see it, and that's probably why I hate when one bashes a language without any reason.

[milad]

What I don't like in runuo is fast prototyping (I've been calling this "extreme programming") seen at work itself. I'm used, expecially dealing with big projects, to see (and do, if I'm the developer):

first: documentation to express what the system should be able to do.

second: a definition of the core (or whatever system you build) interface: not to have to search into the source and see what classes do.. the concept of interface is not so used as for what I've been able to see --- in fact I wouldn't care if they gave the source to public or not, as long as they declared a clear interface you can base upon in order to extend the core appropriately.

third: reasonable use of design patterns and separation rules in deciding what classes do what; for example, if I were to develop a UO server (in Java, maybe?) I'd start off separating the two worlds of architectural domain (see: network connection handling, queuing, maybe even interconnection between servers? anything concerning the physical connection between clients and server and servers between themselves too, if I want), application domain (see: World, Mobiles, Items, etc...), in such a way that they were the most indepependent possible.. for example, given the concept of Mobile, and provided an interconnections between two servers, I'd treat a Mobile from the first as well as one from the second, both being an instance of Mobile.. see what type of criteria I mean here?

fourth: a good beginning from simplicity, instead of wanting to implement everything and at once..

I admit that, and I didn't say the contrary: I'm not a guru in C# nor in RunUo --- and as for the functor objects (which I used to call uses of the command pattern in java) I agree that they are less powerful than delegates, but I can do without delegates very happily anyway using other methods --- but I think I'm expert enough to see if a system is well and orderely implemented or not.

And as for:

I've read a lot of rapid prototype code, over a 13 year period doing that professionally. For rapid prototyping code, it's better than average, when gauged against the quality of code produced by "professionals".

Let me once again disagree.. no offence here, I hope.

Is all of this an insult?...

[noobie]

I am quite sure that actually dev team would do lots of enchancements and also design changes if they write it from the scratch. but right now, that kind of work is not very applicable practically. while lots of work need to be done, they also have to consider others works which depend entirely the core classes.

[Malaperth]

If you had chosen to say similar in the beginning, I doubt there would have been any objection whatsoever. What you say, while mostly correct, is quite idealistic. Most even professional development processes do pretty much what was done here simply because of time and cost constrictions. Documentation is, for the most part, never adequate simply because very seldom is it created by someone outside the development process that thinks of telling people all the process and not basically demanding that someone have some knowledge of what's going on in order to use the code.

For something that these people did for free in their "spare" time, this software is much better than many pieces of software that cost quite a bit of money.

[Courageous]

Originally Posted by milad

first: documentation to express what the system should be able to do.

Well. Get writing it then?

second: a definition of the core (or whatever system you build) interface: not to have to search into the source and see what classes do.. the concept of interface is not so used...

That's an engineering best practice, not an architecture.

third: reasonable use of design patterns and separation rules in deciding what classes do what; for example, if I were to develop a UO server (in Java, maybe?) I'd start off separating the two worlds of architectural domain (see: network connection handling, queuing, maybe even interconnection between servers?

Queing and network connection handling is indeed handled in separate classes in runuo.

but I think I'm expert enough to see if a system is well and orderely implemented or not.

*shrug*

Are you comparing runuo to waterfall model development projects where everything is meticulously reviewed, and development pace drops down to 8K of code per year, or less, depending on the rigor of the process? Silly comparison.

Your criticisms of runuo's architecture are sweepingly general. While it could no doubt be refactored, there are production servers to think of. And... well, the developers have real jobs, too, you know.

C//

[Courageous]

Originally Posted by Malaperth

For something that these people did for free in their "spare" time, this software is much better than many pieces of software that cost quite a bit of money.

I agree. Caveat a laundry lits of nits and irritations:

• Mobile.cs: 11,437 lines. HOLY CRAP.
• Comments? What comments?
• Documentation? *giggle*
• Magic numbers? Didn't we have that conversation?

But really. I've had the displeasure over the years of working code produce by "professionals" that was far worse than the code in runuo. Far, far worse. I generally regard the quality of the code itself, nits aside, as quite good.

It's true that you have to read the core code to deterimine what it does. Not so surprising, really. I've had to do that kind of thing for years and years and years, working prototypes for various R&D efforts. Nobody ever documents these things to any notable degree.

If you asked the devs on any given off sunday if they didn't have to support their servers, and they were feeling sufficiently motivated, would they refactor bunches of runuo, I'm sure they'd say "yes."

But let's not kid ourselves. Java wouldn't have changed any of this.

That notion is just language zealotry at its worst.

C//

[milad]

Originally Posted by Courageous

Are you comparing runuo to waterfall model development projects where everything is meticulously reviewed, and development pace drops down to 8K of code per year, or less, depending on the rigor of the process? Silly comparison.
C//

Actually I'm comparing it to RUP (rational unified process) for example, which iteratively produces a system, where in of the steps you have a clear declaration of what you have and what you want to achieve..

Anyway yes, my criticism is general.. I didnt start saying "this class sux" or something, did I? O_o

About docs, for example, the docs provided with the server don't contain the comments which are indeed included in the source.. isn't that odd? And by the way, I'm actually trying to figure out how to do them.. the only way I found by now is by a tool called doxygen, the others don't work fine (surely my fault somewhere), but here is also MS's fault.. which doesn't provide a good doc tool, at least: I like javadoc, I don't like MSDN.

Finally: I don't want anyone to loose their jobs to improve RunUo, I simply point out what I don't like.

Even more finally: I very seldom led such a useless conversation in my whole forum-life.. may be my fault: too much replying perhaps.

[Courageous]

Originally Posted by milad

Actually I'm comparing it to RUP (rational unified process) for example, which iteratively produces a system, where in of the steps you have a clear declaration of what you have and what you want to achieve..

That's so incredibly silly, I'm suprised you didn't rethink yourself before hitting the "submit reply" button.

C//

p.s., have you ever had a complete stranger make a comment to you like, "hey, your teeth are a little brown, perhaps they could use some whitening?"

[milad]

Silly? .. either explain or stop calling everything silly..

PS: I give you a second option: say you're tired of this conversation, cause I am too..

[Courageous]

Silly? .. either explain or stop calling everything silly..

Very well. I'll call the idea preposterous.

C//

[WarAngel]

milad: So... did you just come here to piss all over C# and make people mad, or was there a point? Honestly, if you hate C# so much, then don't use RunUO! We are not forcing you to do anything.

By the way, there was a Java emulator called Tupi. Go see if that works.

[milad]

@Courageous

the silly thing is that you call silly the fact that i compare extreme programming with rup, do you know what rup is at least? Is it pretestous saying that runuo is not made with rup methodology?? O_o explain this in case..

@WarAngel

I'm here because I've always wanted an UO emulator based on an object oriented language; I just say: why was this big project made without good docs? I'm not the first asking for good API's here.. I did tried to do them myself, I don't come here expecting something I didn't try.. but what I can't try myself is redoing all runuo, otherwise I would have done that already.. maybe my mode was too aggressive, and I apologyze for that to developers, but I explained what I don't like and I did that only because I hope that things can be improved

The main problem is docs, because I don't think the whole server can be redone, so that's what I'm working on, by myself.. I replied in another topic about this..

Thanks about the Tupi, reference, I'll surely try that.

[Malaperth]

Have you generated the RunUO documentation? It functions quite similarly to the docs generated in Java if you generate them. Sure, people may have not put in all the helpful comments, but I have seen very few code bases that had anywhere near adequate comments for people that did not already have a very good idea of what the code was doing before they tried to understand it.

[Courageous]

Originally Posted by milad

the silly thing is that you call silly the fact that i compare extreme programming with rup, do you know what rup is at least?

Yes. I've been doing software development for 15 years. You?

Out of curiosity, which of the Rational products do you personally own and have installed on your home computer?

The main problem is docs,...

Runuo is open source. Where is your contribution? I suggest to you that all of your work be concentrated on documentation. Am I correct in concluding that you would find this activity to be entertaining?

C//

[Anti-Basic]

milad, you have insulted or belittled both the C# language and RunUO. However that is a contradiction in itself. If C# were a bad langugae as you say, then RunUO, as a project, would take twice as much brainpower and effort in C# than on what you would consider to be a good language. Therefore, by insulting the language you must admire the project or at least one of your arguments is null. That is the flaw in your logic.

And as far you being able to make something better in another language... Noone can beat krrios... Nobody.

[milad]

@Corageous

By RUP I mean the iterative methodology, as I already explained... as for my experience I'm graduating now in software engineering and I program since I was 12, I can't beat you as for experience, but please take note that I quite know what I speak about..

About docs, yes, it would be a very nice start for any RunUo newbie, like ME, who wants to understand what they're doing and not dive into something totally unknown to simply wait until it *works*, expecially knowing that I come from Java, whose Javadocs I find really great.

@Anti-basic

There is no flaw cause maybe I didnt point out that I think that the developer made a great work on many viewpoints, *but* there are engineering flaws and as an engineer (I'll be in four days actually - maybe my resulting aggressive is also due to that.. °_°) I notice and tell them very naturally.. cause I think it's useful to make things better and because I've always been used to hear them even on me, I found nothing bad in them.. they help improve..

Again, Sorry if I was offensive and if I used a bad tone.. there was no bellicous intention.

[Courageous]

Originally Posted by milad

By RUP I mean the iterative methodology

I didn't ask you what you meant, Milad.

I'm graduating now in software engineering....

Zero years, then.

... but please take note that I quite know what I speak about...

Interesting that you feel the need to assert this. I'm not convinced, though.

Repeat question: Which rational tools do you own and have installed on your own personal computer?

Repeat question: How much C# have you actually coded?

Repeat question: Am I correct in concluding that you would find this activity (writing documentation) to be entertaining?

Finally--and I must say I am at the moment quite irritated!!!--you previously disagreed with this remark:

I've read a lot of rapid prototype code, over a 13 year period doing that professionally. For rapid prototyping code, it's better than average, when gauged against the quality of code produced by "professionals".

I've executed and/or supervised probably 15-18 rapid prototypes during the mentioned period, and you've.... what?.... done a few homework projects? How much professional rapid prototyping code have you even ever seen?!? What is so terribly annoying about your "disagreement" is that you have no life basis to disagree!

Double U. Tee. Eff.

C//

[milad]

Originally Posted by Courageous

I didn't ask you what you meant, Milad.


Zero years, then.


Interesting that you feel the need to assert this. I'm not convinced, though.

Repeat question: Which rational tools do you own and have installed on your own personal computer?

Repeat question: How much C# have you actually coded?

Repeat question: Am I correct in concluding that you would find this activity (writing documentation) to be entertaining?


C//

I do not own nor have in my computer ANY RUP tools.. so what? Did I ever tell you "I like this and this tool"??

I didn't code anything in C#... repeat, so what? Can't I simply judge on the base of my OOP knowledge, expecially knowing (Do you know?) that C# was born only because MS couldn't use Java anymore and that they're very similar? Of course you think not..

About docs I repeat: YES, I find both contributing on them and *using* them interesting...

So, my conclusion with you (for my side) is: OK keep your opinions, I don't wanna waste my time anymore...

[Courageous]

Originally Posted by milad

I do not own nor have in my computer ANY RUP tools.. so what?

Of course you don't. I knew that.

I didn't code anything in C#... repeat, so what?

So you lack meaningful experience to compare.

Can't I simply judge on the base of my OOP knowledge, expecially knowing that C# was born only because ...

As the years roll by, language zealotry will only harm you, not help you. Your "knowledge" of OOP isn't particularly rich yet, either.

About docs I repeat: YES, I find both contributing on them and *using* them interesting...

Good. Now get to work. Some people don't find that to be fun, and this is an open source effort, where working on it is done for fun.

C//

[WarAngel]

I didn't code anything in C#... repeat, so what? Can't I simply judge on the base of my OOP knowledge, expecially knowing (Do you know?) that C# was born only because MS couldn't use Java anymore and that they're very similar? Of course you think not..

I used to do the same thing with Linux. I thought I knew so much about Windows. I could do anything asked related to Windows usage, etc., and I'd always bash Linux and call it inferior. Guess what is now the only OS I use?

that C# was born only because MS couldn't use Java anymore and that they're very similar?

How many forked projects have become better than the project that was there to begin with? I don't think that's a very logical judgement for you to make.

[Slayer706]

C# is definetly the perfect language for an open source project like RunUO.

First, it is object oriented. I wouldn't even know where to start coding something like Ultima Online if it couldn't be based on classes.

Second, it is a relatively easy language to understand (if coded properly). Anyone can look at something like "public override AlwaysMurderer{ get{ return true} };" and understand what it means. I know a guy that can code almost anything in UO. Anything. Yet, he doesn't know most of the basics of C#, such as: multi-dimensional arrays, the difference between a reference type and a value type, what internal or sealed classes are, etc.

Third, it can be used on almost any computer running Microsoft.

Also, it is a very safe to use language. The compiler is capable of preventing errors and memory leaks before even running the program.

BTW:

Can't I simply judge on the base of my OOP knowledge, expecially knowing (Do you know?) that C# was born only because MS couldn't use Java anymore and that they're very similar? Of course you think not..

Well, instead of criticizing, why not be constructive? What language would you have written RunUO in? Don't say C or C++, or I will be forced to laugh in your face.... Oh, and who cares if C# is related to Java? It is still a very powerful, complex, flexible, secure, easy to use, internet friendly, and visually oriented object based language. It is being used more and more everyday. C# is going places.

Until you scan your engineering degree along with a valid driver's license, I don't know anything about your OOP knowledge (if any). This is the internet. You could be a five year old looking for an argument. You could be a sixty year old woman with nothing else to do. Then again, so could I.

Heck, I can say I have a masters in mathematics and engineering. I won an Olympic gold medal for swimming too. Oh, I was a four star general in the army, navy, and marine corps as well. Not to mention I was the guy that told George Washington to cross the Delaware River and destroy the Prussian force encamped there. What? That was hundreds of years ago? I was accidently transported back in time during a transporter accident on the starship Enterprise. <- Prove me wrong....

[Anti-Basic]

Originally Posted by Slayer706

Also, it is a very safe to use language. The compiler is capable of preventing errors and memory leaks before even running the program.

Originally Posted by Jeff (in #connectuo)