Player Gm's? To exist or not to exist...that is the question - RunUO

Shard Admin Adam · 08-25-2003, 10:40 PM

Ok..I imagine I can open up a good can of worms here for debate (flames) etc.

Topic: Should a shard allow a GM to have his or her own player account?

My staff is really hammering me about allowing GM's to perform duel roles. That is, be a GM during support hours but remain a player with his or her player character during nonsupport hours.

I have always been against GM's having a player account. Either you GM or you play the game. That is my belief since I have seen many good shards become corrupted or even destroyed by corrupt GM's.

I was thinking of a compromise...maybe allowing such duel roles but "dumbing down" the GM commands so they cannot create items, build, or delete various items. Basically, they would be doomed to a role of customer suppport by answering pages or helping out with bugs.

My question to you all is what are your thoughts and your own practices on your shards.

Thanks for the read,

Adam

Fineous · 08-25-2003, 10:41 PM

If you dont trust em make em councelors

Wolverana · 08-25-2003, 10:48 PM

LOL yeah that's essentially what you would be doing if you bumped their commands down is making glorified counselors lol.

Personally I take my GM's from my player base. Sure you always take the chance of a corrupt one but then again tell me what them "not" having a player char will change if they are corrupt anyways and give things to others instead? Absolutely nothing in my experience which I feel has been quite a while over 2 1/2 years worth for the most part.

I've had I would say problems with about 3 staff members that really were problems, a few that quit when things don't go their way instead of mine, oh well lol. and of the 3 that were bad only 1 was so bad it caused any problems.

I've had very good luck I think with my staff and I absolutely believe they should be allowed to make their own choice of if they want to be a player or not yet. I have some very active players/GM's that have turned out to be some of my best staff and some great players for the others to be with also.

I guess to me it's worth the effort of maintaining your control without having to be into overbearing control. If they know their limits or at least some semblance of them, they will be good staff members if they were going to be to begin with.

Basically, being a player has nothing to do with if they are going to be corrupt or not. Corruption does not come from having a player it comes from being stupid to start with.

Fineous · 08-25-2003, 10:50 PM

I did raise wipe to admin level though hehe

08-25-2003, 11:13 PM

i raised most of the commands to admin level LOL

BUT I agree that GM's should be able to play AND Gm' but again my gm's are usually to busy as part of the story (they play NAMED chars in my RP Tolkien shard as GM's) to worry about 'mortal' chars...

**psz** · 08-25-2003, 11:54 PM

I have a GM account and a player account. My characters happen to be some of the weakest characters on the shard :->

I have fun just PLAYING.

We had a tournament recently, and out of five or so participants, the highest my character guy was a second in one round. In everything else he was wiped out by everyone :->

As long as a GM doesn't give himself/herself anything or do anything that they wouldn't do for other players.

If a GM can't be fair ACROSS THE BOARD, then they shouldn't be a GM.

Period.

**David** · 08-26-2003, 01:02 AM

Agreed, a GM can get a better feel for the ebb and flow of the game if he/she is also a player. However, it would stand to reason the character would be at a mid to low level since a lot of the "UO time" will be spent as a GM. If the character is a top dog, suspect abuse.

bleis · 08-26-2003, 01:44 AM

My staff do play, the work hard, and are very trusted. Problem is that there alwayes ia s player or two, that thinks they cheat, and starts shouting cheater all over the place....

silverwolfe · 08-26-2003, 04:12 AM

I have to agree as long as the GM maintains good ethics let them play, in fact i encourage it as my GM's are the best eyes and ears i have on the shard, as well as the most trusted. They find and actually report bugs weither they are to player benifit or not.

Besides if a GM is going to cheat. lol there will be no doubt about it. It has been my experience that GM's that cheat, cheat big.

08-26-2003, 04:49 AM

Only problem i have with em is when they create a player account... they like to tweak em with artifacts and skills... This really makes players mad and makes them leave because the GM Is not being fair and playing the role of the player on his/her player account.

Acid Lord · 08-26-2003, 05:17 AM

Also look at it like this..Will a gm who has a player and gets player killed still be bipartisan to the player or players who pk them? Will they share their knowledge of the shard like rare mount locations and the like with other players who have higher skill to get them? Gm's generally know all there almost is to know about a shard like where everything is and such. Part of playing on a shard is finding things like the rarer mounts like Silver steeds o r Ki-Rin..but if a gm knows that from Gm knowledge then whats to say he wont share that with someone who has been looking for weeks for that Ki-Rin

**psz** · 08-26-2003, 08:45 AM

I have *NEVER* tweaked one of my player characters, and one reason I don't have other GMs is I don't want to have to worry about them doing that.

I don't give any information out to ANYONE, as a player or GM, but then, most of my characters are plain warriors or vendors... No need for special mounts or anything.

One reason I think a GM *SHOULD* have a player account is for legitimate testing. How often do you go into the Bug Report forum, and find out someone is reporting a bug because they tested a feature as a GM instead of a player? (Houses can be placed anywhere, you can teleport anywhere, nothing attacks you, etc etc etc).

If a person can't log in as a player and test as a player, how are they supposed to know what is and isn't wrong with the shard?

Acid Lord · 08-26-2003, 10:45 AM

PLay on a test shard. Its easy to setup the same shard u play on your personal comp to try offline. I run a test shard on my comp and test out the new releases from runuo to let the shard i play on know if I find anything wrong so they can fix

08-26-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acid Lord

PLay on a test shard. Its easy to setup the same shard u play on your personal comp to try offline. I run a test shard on my comp and test out the new releases from runuo to let the shard i play on know if I find anything wrong so they can fix

Sometime you just cant do the same things on a 'test' shard that you can do on an open 'public' shard.

If you have GM's that have player accounts and they 'test' stuff then it's back to the 'two (or more) heads are beter than one' deal and bugs will most likely get found out quicker.

Aidsteen · 08-26-2003, 01:35 PM

I say let them have player accounts. But, check their bank boxes occasionally, making sure they aren't rigging themselves with gear.

Acid Lord · 08-27-2003, 07:41 AM

Give me a situation u cannot repeat on a test shard that u can on a norm shard?

08-27-2003, 07:49 AM

There is no need for any staff on a player-run server, none at all.

Setup the help system to post to a bugtracks database, and email them back the answer to the problem. 95% of pages are not related to in-game at all. The other 5% can be solved through an automated stuck menu.

If you get an email and the problem needs to be solved in game, then "you" login and fix it.

**psz** · 08-27-2003, 08:49 AM

Acid Lord: Combat related bugs in PvP situations. MASS combat with multiple players (IE: Champ Hunts) bugs. Any situation where multiple players are needed (testing housing in different areas).

How are you gonna test that with only one person? :->

bzk90 · 08-27-2003, 10:13 AM

hehehehe u the point is DONT TRUST NEONE WITH EXTRA ORDINARY POWERS this is because if they have advanteges over players they will eventualy use them and if they gm/player is killed as a player u can expect that the gm will abuse the player who pked him/her so the point is hier staff for the test shard and hier some players for the test shard then leave the rest in the norm shard and dont allow gm's to have player accts on real shard or only allow seer's and adminsto have player accts well that how i feel plz dont flame

Shard Admin Adam · 08-27-2003, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman

There is no need for any staff on a player-run server, none at all.

Setup the help system to post to a bugtracks database, and email them back the answer to the problem. 95% of pages are not related to in-game at all. The other 5% can be solved through an automated stuck menu.

If you get an email and the problem needs to be solved in game, then "you" login and fix it.

Those are my feelings exactly. I don't see the need for GM's at all. My three admins should be fine :-)

I am not convinced that a player shard needs GM's at all.

Shard Admin Adam · 08-27-2003, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rainman

There is no need for any staff on a player-run server, none at all.

Setup the help system to post to a bugtracks database, and email them back the answer to the problem. 95% of pages are not related to in-game at all. The other 5% can be solved through an automated stuck menu.

If you get an email and the problem needs to be solved in game, then "you" login and fix it.

Those are my feelings exactly. I don't see the need for GM's at all. My three admins should be fine :-)

I am not convinced that a player shard needs GM's at all.

**psz** · 08-27-2003, 02:40 PM

I have: 0 Seers, 0 Councilors, 0 GMs, and 1 Admin. Me.

I follow my own rules to the T. I'd be a shitty admin otherwise.

There's a reason I have no extra staff. The last couple of posts are that exact reason: More is not needed. The shard should run itself, and the GMs/Admins should be there ONLY to fix the occasional problem, or to add to the shard if/when needed.

Having a player account (A full seperate ACCOUNT, mind you, not a Non-Godpowered char on the admin account) helps to make sure everything is working from the player's perspective. Also allows one to Henry V the shard a bit (To see where you have room for improvement) and (if you work it right) it allows you to interact with the players AS a player so you can see what's REALLY going on (Good for confirming harrasment complaints). The trick is to not let people know this is your non-admin account.

Acid Lord · 08-28-2003, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psz

Acid Lord: Combat related bugs in PvP situations. MASS combat with multiple players (IE: Champ Hunts) bugs. Any situation where multiple players are needed (testing housing in different areas).

How are you gonna test that with only one person? :->

Invite admin or gms to your test shard to test those things out or if more then one comp in house play with friends or family over lan to set it up..no need to test bugs on the shard people use when doing so over a test shard so much easier and if it crashed from testing new things or tryng to fix bugs noone cares but if the shard players play on then that looses players..simple enuf there is nothing u cannot recreat on a test shard

**psz** · 08-28-2003, 08:41 AM

I have a test shard. Use it often. It's actually an up to date copy of my live shard (I copy it once a week, mainly to test new scripts. Damnit, if yer gonna test, test it RIGHT!).

BUT, what I DON'T want is for my players to be able to see things/do things on the test shard they're not ready for on the live shard (IE: Know where special loot is, or where a certain creature spawns).

Besides, I'd say 90% of all the bugs/problems I've found have been from my players on the live shard. My player char has found maybe 10%.

If I am so busy bug hunting on the test shard, I would EASILLY miss bugs on the live shard for just not BEING there to see it.

Let's face it, if you, the admin, see the problem as it happens yourself, it's a lot easier to track down and fix.

If you're going off of what a player says (who doesn't know the ins and outs of the server) you could spend a week trying to reproduce something that would take 2 seconds (Coloured Armour bug, for example).

Acid Lord · 08-28-2003, 01:44 PM

I didnt say norm players.. Admin and some Gms are usually privvy to such info anyway on shard or not. Those the people to use. The shard I play on uses a test shard for these t hings with his admin they connect to his test shard to test and find bugs. Test new releases of runuo or scripts on this test shard with his Admin team testing it. 3 or 4 people are more the enough to test it. I remind you I AM TALKING about ADMIN not players I was talking about ADMIN last post to but I guess you didnt let that sink in.

08-25-2003, 10:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Shard Admin Adam Forum Novice Join Date: Feb 2003 Age: 37 Posts: 232	Player Gm's? To exist or not to exist...that is the question Ok..I imagine I can open up a good can of worms here for debate (flames) etc. Topic: Should a shard allow a GM to have his or her own player account? My staff is really hammering me about allowing GM's to perform duel roles. That is, be a GM during support hours but remain a player with his or her player character during nonsupport hours. I have always been against GM's having a player account. Either you GM or you play the game. That is my belief since I have seen many good shards become corrupted or even destroyed by corrupt GM's. I was thinking of a compromise...maybe allowing such duel roles but "dumbing down" the GM commands so they cannot create items, build, or delete various items. Basically, they would be doomed to a role of customer suppport by answering pages or helping out with bugs. My question to you all is what are your thoughts and your own practices on your shards. Thanks for the read, Adam

08-26-2003, 01:02 AM	#7 (permalink)
David Moderate Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USA Posts: 6,598	Agreed, a GM can get a better feel for the ebb and flow of the game if he/she is also a player. However, it would stand to reason the character would be at a mid to low level since a lot of the "UO time" will be spent as a GM. If the character is a top dog, suspect abuse. __________________ David Forum Moderator The RunUO.com Forum Moderator Team Forum Rules and Guidelines RunUO Forum Search Engine Download RunUO 2.0 RC2

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08-25-2003, 10:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Fineous Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 233	If you dont trust em make em councelors

08-25-2003, 10:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
Wolverana Forum Expert Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 895	LOL yeah that's essentially what you would be doing if you bumped their commands down is making glorified counselors lol. Personally I take my GM's from my player base. Sure you always take the chance of a corrupt one but then again tell me what them "not" having a player char will change if they are corrupt anyways and give things to others instead? Absolutely nothing in my experience which I feel has been quite a while over 2 1/2 years worth for the most part. I've had I would say problems with about 3 staff members that really were problems, a few that quit when things don't go their way instead of mine, oh well lol. and of the 3 that were bad only 1 was so bad it caused any problems. I've had very good luck I think with my staff and I absolutely believe they should be allowed to make their own choice of if they want to be a player or not yet. I have some very active players/GM's that have turned out to be some of my best staff and some great players for the others to be with also. I guess to me it's worth the effort of maintaining your control without having to be into overbearing control. If they know their limits or at least some semblance of them, they will be good staff members if they were going to be to begin with. Basically, being a player has nothing to do with if they are going to be corrupt or not. Corruption does not come from having a player it comes from being stupid to start with.

08-25-2003, 10:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
Fineous Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 233	I did raise wipe to admin level though hehe

08-25-2003, 11:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
Krazy_zack Guest Posts: n/a	i raised most of the commands to admin level LOL BUT I agree that GM's should be able to play AND Gm' but again my gm's are usually to busy as part of the story (they play NAMED chars in my RP Tolkien shard as GM's) to worry about 'mortal' chars...

08-25-2003, 11:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
psz UO Gamers: Demise Administrator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Swamp Age: 29 Posts: 10,800	I have a GM account and a player account. My characters happen to be some of the weakest characters on the shard :-> I have fun just PLAYING. We had a tournament recently, and out of five or so participants, the highest my character guy was a second in one round. In everything else he was wiped out by everyone :-> As long as a GM doesn't give himself/herself anything or do anything that they wouldn't do for other players. If a GM can't be fair ACROSS THE BOARD, then they shouldn't be a GM. Period.

08-26-2003, 01:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
bleis Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 584	My staff do play, the work hard, and are very trusted. Problem is that there alwayes ia s player or two, that thinks they cheat, and starts shouting cheater all over the place....

08-26-2003, 04:12 AM	#9 (permalink)
silverwolfe Twisted Intel Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fort Smith, AR Age: 39 Posts: 1,081	I have to agree as long as the GM maintains good ethics let them play, in fact i encourage it as my GM's are the best eyes and ears i have on the shard, as well as the most trusted. They find and actually report bugs weither they are to player benifit or not. Besides if a GM is going to cheat. lol there will be no doubt about it. It has been my experience that GM's that cheat, cheat big.

08-26-2003, 04:49 AM	#10 (permalink)
Seven Guest Posts: n/a	Only problem i have with em is when they create a player account... they like to tweak em with artifacts and skills... This really makes players mad and makes them leave because the GM Is not being fair and playing the role of the player on his/her player account.

08-26-2003, 05:17 AM	#11 (permalink)
Acid Lord Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 63	Also look at it like this..Will a gm who has a player and gets player killed still be bipartisan to the player or players who pk them? Will they share their knowledge of the shard like rare mount locations and the like with other players who have higher skill to get them? Gm's generally know all there almost is to know about a shard like where everything is and such. Part of playing on a shard is finding things like the rarer mounts like Silver steeds o r Ki-Rin..but if a gm knows that from Gm knowledge then whats to say he wont share that with someone who has been looking for weeks for that Ki-Rin

08-26-2003, 08:45 AM	#12 (permalink)
psz UO Gamers: Demise Administrator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Swamp Age: 29 Posts: 10,800	I have NEVER tweaked one of my player characters, and one reason I don't have other GMs is I don't want to have to worry about them doing that. I don't give any information out to ANYONE, as a player or GM, but then, most of my characters are plain warriors or vendors... No need for special mounts or anything. One reason I think a GM SHOULD have a player account is for legitimate testing. How often do you go into the Bug Report forum, and find out someone is reporting a bug because they tested a feature as a GM instead of a player? (Houses can be placed anywhere, you can teleport anywhere, nothing attacks you, etc etc etc). If a person can't log in as a player and test as a player, how are they supposed to know what is and isn't wrong with the shard?

08-26-2003, 10:45 AM	#13 (permalink)
Acid Lord Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 63	PLay on a test shard. Its easy to setup the same shard u play on your personal comp to try offline. I run a test shard on my comp and test out the new releases from runuo to let the shard i play on know if I find anything wrong so they can fix

08-26-2003, 01:35 PM	#15 (permalink)
Aidsteen Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Toronto, Ontario Age: 20 Posts: 98	I say let them have player accounts. But, check their bank boxes occasionally, making sure they aren't rigging themselves with gear.

08-27-2003, 07:41 AM	#16 (permalink)
Acid Lord Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 63	Give me a situation u cannot repeat on a test shard that u can on a norm shard?

08-27-2003, 07:49 AM	#17 (permalink)
Rainman Guest Posts: n/a	There is no need for any staff on a player-run server, none at all. Setup the help system to post to a bugtracks database, and email them back the answer to the problem. 95% of pages are not related to in-game at all. The other 5% can be solved through an automated stuck menu. If you get an email and the problem needs to be solved in game, then "you" login and fix it.

08-27-2003, 08:49 AM	#18 (permalink)
psz UO Gamers: Demise Administrator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Swamp Age: 29 Posts: 10,800	Acid Lord: Combat related bugs in PvP situations. MASS combat with multiple players (IE: Champ Hunts) bugs. Any situation where multiple players are needed (testing housing in different areas). How are you gonna test that with only one person? :->

08-27-2003, 10:13 AM	#19 (permalink)
bzk90 Master of the Internet Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nevada Age: 18 Posts: 6,630	hehehehe u the point is DONT TRUST NEONE WITH EXTRA ORDINARY POWERS this is because if they have advanteges over players they will eventualy use them and if they gm/player is killed as a player u can expect that the gm will abuse the player who pked him/her so the point is hier staff for the test shard and hier some players for the test shard then leave the rest in the norm shard and dont allow gm's to have player accts on real shard or only allow seer's and adminsto have player accts well that how i feel plz dont flame

08-27-2003, 02:40 PM	#22 (permalink)
psz UO Gamers: Demise Administrator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Swamp Age: 29 Posts: 10,800	I have: 0 Seers, 0 Councilors, 0 GMs, and 1 Admin. Me. I follow my own rules to the T. I'd be a shitty admin otherwise. There's a reason I have no extra staff. The last couple of posts are that exact reason: More is not needed. The shard should run itself, and the GMs/Admins should be there ONLY to fix the occasional problem, or to add to the shard if/when needed. Having a player account (A full seperate ACCOUNT, mind you, not a Non-Godpowered char on the admin account) helps to make sure everything is working from the player's perspective. Also allows one to Henry V the shard a bit (To see where you have room for improvement) and (if you work it right) it allows you to interact with the players AS a player so you can see what's REALLY going on (Good for confirming harrasment complaints). The trick is to not let people know this is your non-admin account.

08-28-2003, 08:41 AM	#24 (permalink)
psz UO Gamers: Demise Administrator Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Swamp Age: 29 Posts: 10,800	I have a test shard. Use it often. It's actually an up to date copy of my live shard (I copy it once a week, mainly to test new scripts. Damnit, if yer gonna test, test it RIGHT!). BUT, what I DON'T want is for my players to be able to see things/do things on the test shard they're not ready for on the live shard (IE: Know where special loot is, or where a certain creature spawns). Besides, I'd say 90% of all the bugs/problems I've found have been from my players on the live shard. My player char has found maybe 10%. If I am so busy bug hunting on the test shard, I would EASILLY miss bugs on the live shard for just not BEING there to see it. Let's face it, if you, the admin, see the problem as it happens yourself, it's a lot easier to track down and fix. If you're going off of what a player says (who doesn't know the ins and outs of the server) you could spend a week trying to reproduce something that would take 2 seconds (Coloured Armour bug, for example).

08-28-2003, 01:44 PM	#25 (permalink)
Acid Lord Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 63	I didnt say norm players.. Admin and some Gms are usually privvy to such info anyway on shard or not. Those the people to use. The shard I play on uses a test shard for these t hings with his admin they connect to his test shard to test and find bugs. Test new releases of runuo or scripts on this test shard with his Admin team testing it. 3 or 4 people are more the enough to test it. I remind you I AM TALKING about ADMIN not players I was talking about ADMIN last post to but I guess you didnt let that sink in.

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