C# A Good Language?

[Setharnas]

What KillerBeeZ said.

I'd also like to learn from this. Any more definite statement available on this, like quotes from authorities on the subject?

[Dereckson]

Wikipedia is freely editable by anyone so if it's wrong correct it...

Oh and don't forget to cite your sources, as you've the right to say what you want, it's your duty to proof it.

[o0_Sithid_0o]

Who really cares what Gen C# is? The poster wanted to know if C# is a good language to start learning with, the answer is yes, a pissing contest is not needed.

There is alot of advantages to learning C and C++, portablity for example. Those languages are harder though, or atleast they were for me. C# is just as powerful though and alot easier in some ways( great IDEs for example ). Theres things you do in c/c++ that is nothing but doddles in C#( i dont have specific examples, please dont ask ).

@Your Calculator: Good start. Personally, i would have used one event for all of the numbered buttons. You only need the text of the Button yes? Not something you would really need to know exactly what button was pushed right? Thats easily snatched with a single event.

[arul]

Originally Posted by Murzin

looks like wiki got it wrong.

Arrwwww.

Let's postulate that evil wiki got it all wrong. Then, what generation does Smalltalk or Perl fall into ? Hell, why do we even care about generations that you bursted out like zzzaaap - boom! Forget it O_o

thats why C# is a 4th gen, you have to have .Net 1.x, 2.x, 3.x to run, and you cannot use those programs without an OS present. same situation with Java. same situation with visual languages and such.

Ever heard about Singularity? Plus, I don't get what do you mean by 'OS present'. You can't run nearly anything without sort of OS present(don't tell me about bootloaders and such software).

And finally, as for the original topic, C# is great language to start with, make sure to check C/C++ later though. C/C++ is great to learn/imagine the undrelying mechanisms, just write your own string class, implement a few basic datastructures, get your first segfaults ... everyone started like that, I believe.

[Courageous]

I am now annoyed.

Wikipedia did not get it wrong. 4GL has referred to purpose built languages like 4th dimension and those families of languages that attempt to appear somewhat like natural language for the entire 20 years I've been in the biz. Wikipedia's list of examples is right on the button. But for your entertainment pleasure, here are the first six definitions of 4GL on Google:

Fourth-generation programming language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is fourth-generation language? - A Word Definition From the Webopedia Computer Dictionary
fourth-generation language definition - Dictionary - MSN Encarta
fourth-generation language
fourth generation language
9. Fourth Generation Environments.

As you'll note, many of them refer to James Martin's coining of the term in 1982.

Anyway, if the one restriction of Java and C# that the OP is complaining about is that the interpreter must be present, I can only shrug to that. Any good installer will include the runtimes for either. Hardly a limitation, and in any case, not a limitation of the language.

C//

[o0_Sithid_0o]

Im still trying to figure out what limits C# would have to the poster. C# can do almost everything that c/c++ can do, you could write an entire game with nothing but C# if you so chose to( RunUO and PlayUO anyone? ). I think maybe only Operating Systems cant be done with C#( and if i remember right there was a research project attempting to write an OS in C# ). So ya ..... methinks C# is just as good as anything else ... regardless what gen. it actually is.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dereckson]

Two samples of real work where I've said "it will be quicker in C++".

Recently, a customer has hired me for a process allow/block application based on process name or MD5 signatures ("don't allow any software to run if not on the list with the good MD5 signature without annoying the user prompting it") (well ... yes I know, it's the feature most power user wants to Vista).

To implement it, you've to hook with Windows API and produce native code.

The easier way was to produce the GUI in C#, the kernel driver in C++.

And right now, I'm creating a software relying heavily on ImageMagick, a graphic manipulation library. Idem: GUI in C#, library doing the GUI work in C#

There is a .Net library but not offering access to the all ImageMagick code I need. So I need to improve this library, coded in C++/CLI (the ".Net C++") and to deal with ImageMagick C++ code.

In this case, MagicWand is a .Net library using unmanaged C++ libraries.

Such bridges allow you to have access to virtually any code in .Net (and so in C#). C++ is the best way to create these wrappers.

Another example I've in head is a C# application I've done with a lot of P/Invoke code to use Windows API. As you can use a unmanaged DLL without any problem in C# just declaring its methods with extern keyword, this is heavier to code and maintain than a C++ library.

So my general advice is "don't be worry about C++ one day or another when you'll need it you'll learn it."

And again for the majority of final applications, C# is wonderful.

Now, there's also specificities of languages. Is any of you have say one day or one other "grmbl I've to implement this fucking interface a third time, let's copy/paste". Sure you should develop a RunicItem : Item, IRunic class but what about this runic chest overriding LockingContainer ? In C++ you can inherits from more than one class (at the cost of a mess to deal with cross references, class A inheriting class B inheriting class A, not such a great solution it sounds like).

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by o0_Sithid_0o

Im still trying to figure out what limits C# would have to the poster. C# can do almost everything that c/c++ can do, you could write an entire game with nothing but C# if you so chose to( RunUO and PlayUO anyone? ). I think maybe only Operating Systems cant be done with C#( and if i remember right there was a research project attempting to write an OS in C# ). So ya ..... methinks C# is just as good as anything else ... regardless what gen. it actually is.

Just my 2 cents.

That Research project is called Microsoft Singularity, and yes its a OS written in C#. The difference is that it does not really use .Net or compile to IL. Instead it is used with microsoft's other project called Bartok, which is a C# compiler that compiles down to Machine code, just like C++. However, this makes it so you cant use the .net library, so you would have to write everything from scratch just like you do in C++ 99% of the time. The big deal about Singularity is that its a completely managed OS, and contains its own Garbage Collector. It has even hit the point as to be in RDK(Research Development Kit) which was sent out to all the major universities.

[bacca87]

C# is for preteen newbie programmers...
The old school is C/C++

Always remember this: if you want learn programming go exclusively on C++

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by bacca87

C# is for preteen newbie programmers...
The old school is C/C++

Always remember this: if you want learn programming go exclusively on C++

Your an idiot.

[TheRockstar2253]

Originally Posted by bacca87

C# is for preteen newbie programmers...
The old school is C/C++

Always remember this: if you want learn programming go exclusively on C++

Yah. You are so wrong.

[Kyla]

Originally Posted by birdman2279

I have been looking for a language to seriously learn & was wondering if C# is a language i should look into a lot or are there other more powerful languages that are better off being learnt?

If your looking for something to help you play with RunUO, C# would probably be a decent language to start playing with.

However if you plan on going to college/tradeschool or take any programming classes in the future, and want a leg up, your much better off starting with Java.

~K

[crackrat]

Originally Posted by Kyla

If your looking for something to help you play with RunUO, C# would probably be a decent language to start playing with.

However if you plan on going to college/tradeschool or take any programming classes in the future, and want a leg up, your much better off starting with Java.

~K

funny most of the collages in my area only deal with a smattering of java or c#, and that as combined language classes. The root of the degrees ive looked into are based on c/c++ as the main language.

as far as collage courses and wanting to make a living from programming. I would worry more about learning proper structure and basic systems design architecture rather than any particular language. Honestly you will use several different languages in your work, don't get trapped into believing theres only one way.

C# as a decent language, you bet. c# is my pick for designing just about any support application. I still lean towards c++ as my main language as it was my first language after basic. this will change in my thinking as projects like Bartok get better and better.

[Kyla]

Originally Posted by crackrat

funny most of the collages in my area only deal with a smattering of java or c#, and that as combined language classes. The root of the degrees ive looked into are based on c/c++ as the main language.

*nods* Most of the ones I've looked into here and when I was living on the west coast, all focus on Java for a good majority of their classes.

Yes, I imagine teaching structure, object orientation and whatnot is a big part of it, however as I said, learning the specific language would give a bit of a head start. There are no schools that I've looked at that have C# classes, all Java. Even in Microsoft country.

I'm not trying to argue semantics or my favourite language can beat up your favourite language. Simply providing the bloke the information based upon something I recently have had experience lookin into.

~K

[Courageous]

I think that every developer I know that has strong exposure across C, C++ and languages like Java (or C#) feels about the same. They feel that it's good for someone to know C++, and they feel that's it's good that they themselves know C++. C++ is necessary, and "hard," when compared to Java or C#.

And yet, I think many of us wish that it wasn't so that we needed to know C++. A language with a lack of good integrated exception handling, as well as the very presence of the segmentation fault, and utterly awful things like silent memory corruption, are all things that anyone who has come to love Java, C#, or any other next gen language just cringes about when thinking about C++.

And yet it's still around, and it's still good that we know it, it's still often necessary (although less and less often does this matter), and it's still a sort of rite of passage.

But I, for one, will happily wish C++ a fond farewell when it's lifespan has reached its final end.

"Goodbye, C++, O how we loved thee."


C//

[zenroth]

Completely agree with Courageous, here at work, we use a mix of C, C++, C++ managed, C#, and VB6 in all the same project. Even worse this project uses VB6, Visual Studio 6.0, visual studio 2003, and visual studio 2005 to compile. Were really trying to kick everything over to C#, the main problem is other low level software stacks we need to interface with which are also written in C++ unmanaged.

C++ is great, but is a pain, sadly its still the defacto standard in game development, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. C# is a nice universe when you can use it though.

[Kyla]

Originally Posted by zenroth

C++ is great, but is a pain, sadly its still the defacto standard in game development, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. C# is a nice universe when you can use it though.

It is, and I agree with the above posts.

I think the thing about C++ is that it's a lower level language. Same reason people write some bits of code in ML still even if the application is written mostly in C/C++. It's what you gotta do if you want that fair mix of speed/performance vs ease of use. The lower level the language, the more it lets you shoot yourself in the foot, and yet at the same time the less overhead/interference you get at compile time / post compile.

Whether the higher level languages such as C# or Java ever become that much more mainstream for heavily coded applications only time will tell, who knows industry may decide with the speed of machines it is 'good enough'.

~K

[DontdroptheSOAD]

Originally Posted by Kyla

It is, and I agree with the above posts.

I think the thing about C++ is that it's a lower level language. Same reason people write some bits of code in ML still even if the application is written mostly in C/C++. It's what you gotta do if you want that fair mix of speed/performance vs ease of use. The lower level the language, the more it lets you shoot yourself in the foot, and yet at the same time the less overhead/interference you get at compile time / post compile.

Whether the higher level languages such as C# or Java ever become that much more mainstream for heavily coded applications only time will tell, who knows industry may decide with the speed of machines it is 'good enough'.

~K

C++ isn't a lower level language.

[Courageous]

Originally Posted by DontdroptheSOAD

C++ isn't a lower level language.

Well, if one were quibbling bits, one might say that while C++ isn't a low level language, it might be a lower level language.

*grin*

C//

[Kyla]

Originally Posted by Courageous

Well, if one were quibbling bits, one might say that while C++ isn't a low level language, it might be a lower level language.

That's exactly how I meant it. *grins*
While it isn't a 'low' level language, it is a 'lower' level language, as it does have less abstraction.

~K