All Shards migrate to new Kingdom Reborn

[Radwen]

Originally Posted by jeremymcc

Is anyone else working on a fork besides the GeNova project? I took one look at that thing and just about had a migraine because of all the custom junk and I think that language in the comments was Italian. We need an English version! :P I've already started plugging in stuff from the foreign sites but thought I'd ask if anyone else is any further.

The guy is from Brazil. So it's most likely Portuguese.

[SiENcE]

UOKR is not 3d! But let me explain it.

They dont use Mesh or Vertex Data for Chars or Static Tiles! Of couse their terrain is pseudo 3d, but also the 2D Client uses this pseudo 3d.

The only thing they use is the 3d accelerated Graohic Surface Direct3d.

Spells and Effect are particles, but this has nothing todo with using 3d.

[XenoNeo]

Wow for one, why are we arguing over 2D and 3D understandment? Anyways I've been in college getting my Computer Programming Degree in C/C++ and working towards my four year as Computer Science. I will let you know what I figure out myself.. I am a bit curious to see myself.

[SiENcE]

You better take a look at UODev Forum . It the most source of uokr reverse eng.

UODEV.de :: Forum anzeigen - UO:KR

[Zippy]

It's not the C++ that is the problem with creating something like Razor. I think he would have much more trouble with the assembly language.

[arul]

Hand writing assembly ain't that bad, reversing the client software is.

And no, I really don't believe that even very good C# programmer could possibly pick up on C++ in one month. I mean, that he might be able to write as quality software in C++ as in C#.

[Radwen]

Originally Posted by arul

Hand writing assembly ain't that bad, reversing the client software is.

And no, I really don't believe that even very good C# programmer could possibly pick up on C++ in one month. I mean, that he might be able to write as quality software in C++ as in C#.

You have to understand the context better . A beginner in C# can learn as much in C++ very easily.

[arul]

Originally Posted by Radwen

You have to understand the context better . A beginner in C# can learn as much in C++ very easily.

That rule doesn't apply specificaly to C# but to any programming language, you only need to start thinking as a programmer. C# is more like Java than C++.
In non-managed environment its soo much easier to shoot yourself in the foot, so you either need more time to produce a good code or more experience, respectively.

[Anti-Basic]

Originally Posted by alexannder

It is like this. You have two cars. One car without airco and a newer car with airco. Wich car do you prefer to Ride on a summerday.

Whatever the driver of the car prefers. Why would you want everyone to migrate to KR? Why not just do it yourself and let others choose what they want?

[Radwen]

Originally Posted by arul

That rule doesn't apply specificaly to C# but to any programming language, you only need to start thinking as a programmer. C# is more like Java than C++.
In non-managed environment its soo much easier to shoot yourself in the foot, so you either need more time to produce a good code or more experience, respectively.

You still didn't understand lol. Read the first sentence again.

[jeremymcc]

lol, i agree with anti basic. not everyone wants KR, period, so don't push it on them. thats just wrong. but i think having the optional support for those who do want it would be great too. i know the runuo team wants no part in it, which is fine, but i think a fork with support would be great. i've been taking a stab at it and got a bunch of the gumps working. if i get to a point where i think its worth a woot i'll be sure to share unless someone beats me to it.

[Arkryal]

From what I've gathered here, Most people want KR because of the animation quality. They used essentially the same technique that was used in Diablo II. They make full 3D renders, pose them and form sprite animation from the resulting still renders (fake 3d). Most of the mobile creatures have the same movements and positions (however the new ones have more frames of movement it seems, and programmable idle states), so could they not be captured from the new client and ported over to the old. Why not just completely fork the graphics development from what Origin is doing and build our own graphic libraries. I understand this doesn't address lighting and shadows or any of the other fundamental changes in the client, but a simple graphics patch could do wonders for the game.

I'll admit, I know basically nothing about the anatomy of the existing mul files beyond simple patches, nor how they are invoked by the client, but it seems in theory quite possible. Aside from the one obvious objection (the staggering amount of work involved), is there any reason a complete custom graphic library replacement could not be done?

I ask for 2 reasons. One: I am working on several scripts that would benefit from several completely new mobiles rather than using or modifying the existing ones, and I'm capable of making them if they can be added into the game. Two: it means that captures could be taken (either directly or manually through screen caps) of the new art and inserted into the old client.

I 'm not a fan of moving to KR, but if there was a way to get even moderately better graphic quality and throw it into the original 1997 version (or at least pre-release 16) of the game, It would be a huge success.

[minion552]

Not sure if anyone has taken a deeper look into the new client but there will be some problems converting Runuo or any emu for that matter to work here is why. (by the way I am new here but I have a degree from UAT in game Dev and design).

The new client has a new encryption on it like the one used in World of Warcraft where it looks for your serial number that is Registered to the cd key in your Reg files. There are ways around it hence the free wow servers you can play on although unlike this fine emulator it takes them months to patch a client to get it to work with a 8 month old system.

Can Runuo, KR and razor all work together I think so but it would be months before a stable system was running and a client could be made to run it. I would love to run a KR shard but I do not see that happening anytime soon PlayStation 4 might be out by then

[FingersMcSteal]

I'd have to say this...

UO is... well UO... and the KR client just doesn't give it that feel to what UO should be. Personally i still think the KR client was one of the biggest nails in the coffin of UO as far as EA and the game goes, but some like it.

I was messing around this week and downloaded 2 things... KR to see what it's like these days... Iris 2 to see the progress on that, and of course i still use the 2D.

I'd say spend 5-10 minutes playing round with each of those and see what you think, you'll maybe find (like i did) that UO is... UO and should just stay the way it is... 2D client for me i'm afraid. I think if EA wanted to make the game head into the 3D market like so many other newer games out there they should have gone the Iris way, but thats just me.

[HellRazor]

I never understood what some people have against isometric sprite-based engines. Some sprite based engines look absolutely fantastic, depending on the quality of the art. And at the same time, some 3D engines look incredibly crappy, depending on the quality of the engine and models used. So "3D" doesn't automatically make an engine superior in my opinion.

The look and feel of KR is really alien to me. I'm not even sure I would like it in a totally seperate game, let alone in UO. It's just kind of "off" to me.

[Arkryal]

I still don't see the distinction between the two clients. They are both 2D and represent the same items, mobiles and so forth. While I can appreciate the improved quality of some of the graphics, specifically as pertains to resolution, I do understand why it is a low priority for this project.

Aside from the subjective argument: "it looks better" which is very debatable, there is only one reason I see for making a switch: higher resolution support.

The UO project began in 1995, and was released in 1997 when 640 x 480 screen resolutions were commonplace. 800x600 was considered a great res for gamers, and 1024x768 was obscene (though still supported by most apps). This is a game made for 15"-19" CRTs. Today those size monitors or resolutions are laughable. 22" wide screens with more than double the native resolution are sub $250, and lower res 24" screens have dropped below $200. The biggest advantage to the KR client is that it can run on a large screen without appearing in a tiny window or stretching pixels to 1" each. As resolution support expands, naturally more detail can be displayed in the artwork, and in many cases should be.

KR brings more to the game than just a new client, and all those changes I feel are detrimental to the experience. But an argument can be made for updating the visual appearance of the game, if in doing so the character of a 2d iso game can be preserved.

The cold hard truth of it is this: there is no practical way of keeping up with the encryption changes. Short of creating a new client all together, it would be a fruitless effort that would slow development in the long term. That being said, a fully custom, community built client is the next logical step here. It is still a monumental undertaking and would require the talents of many programmers who are willing to spend countless hours. The only remaining question is: would the effort be worth the product? Most of this community's "talent" is already highly invested in the existing client and it's operations. It would require complete rewrites of many of the most basic RunUO scripts and minor changes to all of them. Supporting such an undertaking on the server end while maintaining support for the existing client would be practically impossible given the organization structure of this community.

I'd be interested in exploring some of the possibilities with more involved client modifications, but doubt much will come of it.

[b0b01]

Originally Posted by Arkryal

The cold hard truth of it is this: there is no practical way of keeping up with the encryption changes. Short of creating a new client all together, it would be a fruitless effort that would slow development in the long term. That being said, a fully custom, community built client is the next logical step here. It is still a monumental undertaking and would require the talents of many programmers who are willing to spend countless hours. The only remaining question is: would the effort be worth the product? Most of this community's "talent" is already highly invested in the existing client and it's operations. It would require complete rewrites of many of the most basic RunUO scripts and minor changes to all of them. Supporting such an undertaking on the server end while maintaining support for the existing client would be practically impossible given the organization structure of this community.

I'd be interested in exploring some of the possibilities with more involved client modifications, but doubt much will come of it.

Sounds like you live on a different planet than i do. The most populated runuo shards are the pre-AOS shards. The least populated shards are the shards that require you to modify the client. RunUO was started to make an emulator for UO not a custom game. UO has been going down, i havn't seen the subscription numbers since KR, but i bet it didn't save the world. The RunUO community has been declining the last years too. I don't know how much you now about the encryption, but its easier to find it than to write your own client. The ones that have done the encryption stuff untill now however don't want to share the knowledge of how its done with the RunUO community for some reason.

btw for a custom client check Main Page - Iris.

[HellRazor]

Originally Posted by b0b01

Sounds like you live on a different planet than i do. The most populated runuo shards are the pre-AOS shards. The least populated shards are the shards that require you to modify the client.

I think different people prefer different kinds of shards, and most players want what they are most familiar with. That doesn't mean that there isn't an audience for different types of shards, nor does it mean that "success" is defined solely by numbers of players. Personally I'd prefer 5 good players to 50 assholes, but that's just me.

RunUO was started to make an emulator for UO not a custom game. UO has been going down, i havn't seen the subscription numbers since KR, but i bet it didn't save the world. The RunUO community has been declining the last years too.

I think that's only logical. The game is over 10 years old. The fact that a sprite based 2D game is still around, still successful enough to have commercial servers, and to have an active emulation community like RunUO, is a real testament to how unique UO really is. A lot of whiz-bang 3D MMORPGs have come and gone in that time.

I think that even though the audience is shrinking that UO emulators will continue to have an audience (even if it is a relatively small one) for a long time to come. UO offers quite a few features that other MMORPGs do not, and especially not FREE-TO-PLAY MMORPGs like RUO servers are.

And so far as running a hobby MMORPG goes, RunUO is the most fully developed MMORPG server out there right now. And I know, because I've hunted for a 3D MMORPG engine or emulator to replace RUO - and have not found anything that is stable enough, capable of hosting thousands of simultaneous players, and that can be brought up and running as quickly and with as little fuss as RUO can (not to mention something that can be modified and customized as easily).

Yeah, the audience is shrinking, but I wouldn't sound the death toll just yet. People have been predicting UO's demise for years, and yet its still here.

I don't know how much you now about the encryption, but its easier to find it than to write your own client. The ones that have done the encryption stuff untill now however don't want to share the knowledge of how its done with the RunUO community for some reason.

I don't think its a matter of not wanting to share the knowledge. Its more a matter of encryption breaking and reverse engineering being pretty technical subjects, even for the most experienced programmers. Quite frankly its not something just anyone can do, and not something that too many people want to spend thousands of hours trying to teach someone else to do. A lot of it isn't even UO specific, so there are a lot of resources out there for people who want to learn how to break encryption. It's just not something that is easily taken on for most people.

btw for a custom client check Main Page - Iris.

Agreed. Iris is the most promising of all the custom client efforts as it is the one that is most actively developed. Still has a ways to go before being ready for use as a "client of choice" - but it's definitely on its way.

[b0b01]

Originally Posted by HellRazor

Yeah, the audience is shrinking, but I wouldn't sound the death toll just yet. People have been predicting UO's demise for years, and yet its still here.

I don't think its a matter of not wanting to share the knowledge. Its more a matter of encryption breaking and reverse engineering being pretty technical subjects, even for the most experienced programmers. Quite frankly its not something just anyone can do, and not something that too many people want to spend thousands of hours trying to teach someone else to do. A lot of it isn't even UO specific, so there are a lot of resources out there for people who want to learn how to break encryption. It's just not something that is easily taken on for most people.

I made the post on the subject why it would be unlikely that this community will create a custom client. Not stating my general opinion on the state of uo.

Just wanted to react on those two statements. I never said its going to be shut down soon, i meant to say its loosing players heavily. Maybe im too realistic but uo isn't going to get a boost untill EA finds that UO might be a nice brand and pump a few millions in the development of some game with that name in it. At the moment its what they call in business terms a cash cow, late in its product lifecycle, little development, milk it untill its done, use earnings to fund new projects.

And i think that every semi educated man and woman can learn just about anything if they are willing to put their time into it. And its pretty much a fact to me that there is little documentation on getting encryption codes of the uo client as target. Everything usually is hard to invent but when it has been invented it is rather easy to document it and replicate it. My feeling is that it is pretty much the same with breaking the uo clients encryption key.

P.S. I think RunUO is great, i think its one of the best ways to learn c# or programming in general. You can start easy and work yourself up to make almost anything.

[Arkryal]

Originally Posted by b0b01

Sounds like you live on a different planet than i do. The most populated runuo shards are the pre-AOS shards. ....
btw for a custom client check Main Page - Iris.

I am advocating client modification, not saying it's unreasonable. But the scope of the changes I'm talking about reach beyond casual mul patches and map edits. I'm talking about core client functionality. Iris is a fine project, but it's a fork in development, not a continuation of UO emulation. We're talking apples and oranges.

You say it's easier to find and patch encryption than work on a new client. I agree, that is specifically the problem. As we've seen, encryption changes can occur with a small client patch and it all must be done again. In the long run, I think an open client that strives to emulate the look and functionality of the current 2D client would be beneficial. That type of project would not gain the type of momentum needed because as you say it's easier to "patch".

Client patching is also not terribly difficult. While I can't speak to the exact process with any UO client, I don't imagine it differs much from that of other software checks. Basically Dump the exe before and after patch, compare the results looking for differences. Rinse and repeat a few times to generate a variety of test samples and do some (typically very basic) algebra. Determine the process that takes the hash from before the patch and makes it the hash after the patch. If that works on all your test data, jot down the algorithm and write a program to generate it given any set of hashes. I'm oversimplifying a bit, but that's the general process for 99% of software / DRM schemes / software level encryption out there today. Dust off an old copy of softice and dive in. For a dead piece of software, it still works most of the time and there are a thousand+ tutorials out there.

With newer games, it gets trickier. Many use abstract hashes. While a standard hash is basically a string of ASCII characters (values 0-255), an abstract hash exists as an equation unknown on the client end. Instead you seed one server who returns a resulting equation who's computed result you pass to a second server for verification. Since the formula used changes based on your seed which changes constantly, you would need tens of thousands of pieces of sample data to make a crack that always worked. I don't know if KR uses this or not, as I said I haven't looked. But if they did, every client patch would require thousands of samples before anyone could even look at it. Given UO's affiliation with EA, who is notorious for using abstract hash encryption, I'd just as soon get away from their client all together. If it's not implemented yet, it could be very soon.

[b0b01]

Originally Posted by Arkryal

I am advocating client modification, not saying it's unreasonable. But the scope of the changes I'm talking about reach beyond casual mul patches and map edits. I'm talking about core client functionality.

You won't see Ryan or any of the other RunUO officials say they advocate client modding or copying the uo clients functionality, because it's illegal.

So you would have to make a client unrelated to UO, which they would not be interested in since they made the Emulator to emulate a server for UO.

Your best bet is thus to start your own project if you want to emulate the UO client of which one of the projects is Iris2.

Originally Posted by Arkryal

Iris is a fine project, but it's a fork in development, not a continuation of UO emulation. We're talking apples and oranges.

It's not a fork, they made their client from scratch and are an independent project. Besides that they try to emulate the UO client so i don't quite get your point on that.

[Arkryal]

ok, fork is the wrong word. They are emphasizing the 3D view, which is a complete departure from the official client. Yes, they have a 2D option, but that is not what the bulk of their resources are going into. I also understand why many here would have nothing to do with such a project, due to the legal liabilities you mention. RunUO is more a facsimile of the UO server function than a true emulation of it, which I'm sure is why it hasn't been shut down by EA's legal teams. The methods it implements take a different approach to similar or identical effect. Legally, software patents are dodged easily by this approa