From a Soldier

[Aurastin]

The Soldier


It is the soldier, not the poet,
who gives us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who gives us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who gives us freedom to protest.

It is the soldier who serves beneath the flag,
who salutes the flag, and whose coffin
is draped by the flag, who gives the
demonstrator the right to burn the flag.

[willis-o]

Aman brother,

Fort Hood Texas.

[Ankhesentapemkah]

I strongly disagree. Freedom is not won by force of arms. And remember, those arms are paid for by taxpayer's money, so in the end you only exist because of the citizens.

What you are saying now is typical for Americans, but remember that there are many countries around the world who have soldiers, and not all have free speech. Freedom can only be gained when the majority of the people believe in it, and they do not have to aquire it through violence or defend it through threat of violence, as we see many terrorists try nowadays. Then again one man's terrorist is the other man's freedom fighter.

Originally Posted by Ankhesentapemkah

I strongly disagree.

I don't....

Freedom is not won by force of arms.

When an aggressive country tries to get a foothold on terratory (aka other countries) around it in a plan of world domination then sometimes force of arms is the way to win freedom.

Then again one man's terrorist is the other man's freedom fighter.

In MY definitation a 'freedome fighter' is somboy that hates the tyrany of his/her OWN country and tries to over through the government WITHOUT taking the lives of CIVIALANS, a 'terrorist' is sombody that wants to overthrough his/her own government by any means...

..including the killing of civilians.

Don't get me woring here I think that the current war in Iraq is wrong and illegal BUT i supported the liberation of Quate from the Iraq forces that were holding it.

Why the difference?

The Quate people ASKED the USA to come and help them....

...the Iraq people didn't. (and that makes ALL the difference)


*salutes the flag*

Skymonkey
Inlistedman (reserve)
Company Charlie HaPec

[Ankhesentapemkah]

Originally Posted by SkyMonkey

I don't....

When an aggressive country tries to get a foothold on terratory (aka other countries) around it in a plan of world domination then sometimes force of arms is the way to win freedom.

I think that complete and utter non-cooperation and full civil disobiedience works best.

Originally Posted by SkyMonkey

In MY definitation a 'freedome fighter' is somboy that hates the tyrany of his/her OWN country and tries to over through the government WITHOUT taking the lives of CIVIALANS, a 'terrorist' is sombody that wants to overthrough his/her own government by any means...

..including the killing of civilians.

Don't get me woring here I think that the current war in Iraq is wrong and illegal BUT i supported the liberation of Quate from the Iraq forces that were holding it.

Why the difference?

The Quate people ASKED the USA to come and help them....

...the Iraq people didn't. (and that makes ALL the difference)

I fully agree with the observation that it's pointless to interfere with a country that didn't ask for it. However during WW2, the French resistance killed plenty of civilians, yet they're still called freedom fighters.

Originally Posted by SkyMonkey

*salutes the flag*

*Burns yet another US flag*

[Mum_Chamber]

and its the soldier, that kills.

the soldier, that bombs.
the soldier, that nukes..

[silverwolfe]

Originally Posted by Mum_Chamber

the soldier, that nukes..

Actually I can not think of a single instance where a soldier has the power to "nuke" Killing power such as that is generaly reserved for those who are no where near the lines.

[malgrimace]

Technically it's not soldiers that nuke - it's the choise of governments to unleash such firepower. A simple grunt doesn't carry nukes around in their back pocket.

I think we should take emphasis off of the soldiers being the unsung heros of war-fare, when the real heroes are the men who are prepared to stand up for their beliefs and will do anything to stop the killing. Granted - there is a need for military minds in the day and age, but if we could break the chain and talk instead of fight, this planet might just become a nice place to live.

[silverwolfe]

Originally Posted by malgrimace

Technically it's not soldiers that nuke - it's the choise of governments to unleash such firepower. A simple grunt doesn't carry nukes around in their back pocket.

I think we should take emphasis off of the soldiers being the unsung heros of war-fare, when the real heroes are the men who are prepared to stand up for their beliefs and will do anything to stop the killing. Granted - there is a need for military minds in the day and age, but if we could break the chain and talk instead of fight, this planet might just become a nice place to live.

Here Here.... some one buy that person a drink on me!

[xutees]

You know no one in the army today has been drafted, and the original post here deserves a thank you....so thank you.

It seems that a lot of people are forgetting those who lost thier lives fighting for our freedom from the british. And again in the civil war, and again in WWI and WWII. Sometimes Their are people who dont want to talk and are there are those too afraid to ask for help. And i dont agree with taking innocent lives but when someone thinks they can come and kill as many innocent live as were taken on Sept. 11th and get away with it they are nuts.

So think of us not as freedom fighters or international interferers, but as protectors of the United States.

And those of you that disagree can tell your kids that their freedom came by chance, if they're smart they'll laugh at you.

P.S. Dont F*** With The United States

[Grae]

Originally Posted by Mum_Chamber

and its the soldier, that kills.

the soldier, that bombs.
the soldier, that nukes..

Wrong!

Soldiers are Tools that do the Jobs they were Designed for.
No-one is born a Soldier, they are Created, Crafted & Finely Tuned.
Who weilds these finely crafted tools?

Your Governments.

Most Soldiers may not like thier assigned Tasks, but they do it anyway. Cause thats what thier country pays them to do. Whether they like it or not.

The only difference between the Soldier on this side of the Line to those on the other, is the uniform. The Soldier is just a pawn in someone elses Deadly senseless game.

- Grae
Australian Combat Engineer

[xutees]

i agree with some of that but like isaid before we signed up for it

[Grae]

Yes we signed up, and we do what we're trained to do. Whether we like the task at hand or not, we do it. We don't question the reason behind it, we just do it.

- Grae
Australian Combat Engineer

[Ankhesentapemkah]

Originally Posted by Grae

Yes we signed up, and we do what we're trained to do. Whether we like the task at hand or not, we do it. We don't question the reason behind it, we just do it.

- Grae
Australian Combat Engineer

I can make my dog do tricks without thinking too. Let's all thank the dog.

Obeidience without questions is NOT a virtue, it's stupidity. You have a brain, don't you? USE IT. What you do not seem to have, is a set of YOUR OWN moral principles, and to make up for the lack of it, you just let another person think for you, and let another person decide what's right and wrong.

[xutees]

we join because we decided that we wanted to be a part of the solution
not everything we do is right but you have to remember part of being in a democracy is that the people make the decision not us
you may not vote to go to war but your elected representatives do.
so next time you go to the polls (if you do at all) remember that.
and if you dont go to the polls you have no right to bitch.

and we do have minds of our own if an unlawful order come my way the person who gave it to me can bite off

[Ankhesentapemkah]

Originally Posted by Grae

Wrong!

Soldiers are Tools that do the Jobs they were Designed for.
No-one is born a Soldier, they are Created, Crafted & Finely Tuned.
Who weilds these finely crafted tools?

Your Governments.

Most Soldiers may not like thier assigned Tasks, but they do it anyway. Cause thats what thier country pays them to do. Whether they like it or not.

So, when you recieve money for it, it makes up for all the wrongs you do? When your government or superior tells you to do something that goes against your own moral compass, YOU are not responsible for the wrongs you do? I've heard that one before. "Befehl ist befehl" (orders are orders), said by plenty of Germans after world war 2. Many of them were still executed for their crimes, because they did not have the courage to say "No, this is wrong".

Originally Posted by Grae

The only difference between the Soldier on this side of the Line to those on the other, is the uniform. The Soldier is just a pawn in someone elses Deadly senseless game.

So, you do have enough wits to see that. Yet you still play the game along?

[Ankhesentapemkah]

Originally Posted by xutees

You know no one in the army today has been drafted, and the original post here deserves a thank you....so thank you.

It seems that a lot of people are forgetting those who lost thier lives fighting for our freedom from the british. And again in the civil war, and again in WWI and WWII. Sometimes Their are people who dont want to talk and are there are those too afraid to ask for help.

So think of us not as freedom fighters or international interferers, but as protectors of the United States.

And those of you that disagree can tell your kids that their freedom came by chance, if they're smart they'll laugh at you.

Pretty example of circular logic, contained in your own personal simpleton mind. You now say that you can only obtain freedom from an opressor through violence. I guess you never heard of Ghandi and the independance of India from the British.

Originally Posted by xutees

And i dont agree with taking innocent lives but when someone thinks they can come and kill as many innocent live as were taken on Sept. 11th and get away with it they are nuts.

And what if some Iraqi now sais "I don't agree with taking innocent lives, but the US won't get away with the tens of thousands innocent lives taken on Iraqi soil", straps some bombs to himself and blows himself up, taking some Americans with him.

Now look at what happened on March 11th in Spain. Hundreds were killed in a terrorist attack, and what did Spain say? "We no longer continue this course of action, there has been enough bloodshed", and withdrew it's troops from Iraq. THAT's the proper course of action. THAT is what breaks the circle. You can go kill more people, bomb more cities, and all you get in return are more terrorist attacks. Stop being dumb and taking pointless revenge, in which much more innocents die.

Originally Posted by xutees

P.S. Dont F*** With The United States

Of course, the US wants to reserve the right to fuck everyone else over for themselves.

[xutees]

You know You dont seem to think thing through before you post em
we are not nazis
there are people getting punished for war crimes right now and there arent many
we follow rules of war nazis didnt and the iraqis dont

[quote=Ankhesentapemkah]Wow, a mere 1000. I just read the news this morning, over 100 Iraqis died last sunday. In a single day. And you're moaning over a mere 1000 in more then a year. Until the casualty rates are 1:1, shut up, thank you very much.

and if we only killed 1:1 we wouldnt ever finish this war would we

[xutees]

you must have been beaten up in high school

if we just lay down and let our enemies blow shit up all the time we would still be under someone elses control you probably wouldnt be able to say the things you do now

[Da_PalaDin]

It seems that a lot of people are forgetting those who lost thier lives fighting for our freedom from the british.

in Australia we managed to become our own country without the bloodshed...
of course its true that we still have a union jack on our flag and that that we are part of the commonwealth, but we managed no needless loss of lives and eventually we will become a republic.

- Grae
Australian Combat Engineer

rock on Grae, we need more defence force personnel!

[xutees]

but the fact is that no matter how we try some times there is no other choice

if the iraqi people had the power to protest the regime they probably would have. If they had the power to ask for help they probably would have.

and eventually they will have the right to protest and make the changes themselves

[xutees]

i must have made him mad

[Ankhesentapemkah]

Originally Posted by xutees

You know You dont seem to think thing through before you post em
we are not nazis
there are people getting punished for war crimes right now and there arent many
we follow rules of war nazis didnt and the iraqis dont

And you don't seem to read what I said. I didn't compare current operations with the Nazi's, I compared the Nazi grunts with American grunts. The do-as-youre-told-and-dont-question-it-ever stuff.

Originally Posted by xutees

and if we only killed 1:1 we wouldnt ever finish this war would we

Of course it would. Once both sides get sick of the killing and stop fighting.

[Ankhesentapemkah]

Originally Posted by xutees

but the fact is that no matter how we try some times there is no other choice

if the iraqi people had the power to protest the regime they probably would have. If they had the power to ask for help they probably would have.

Problem is that revolution, violent or non-violent, may take some time. And now you denied them the chance to make that choice and development themselves. This doesn't make Iraq stong. All it does is put a dent in the self-image of the people. "We were oppressed back then, and we couldn't do anything about it, just as we can't do anything about what's going on now." How the hell is that supposed to help Iraq becomming a free and democratic nation, by forcing them these things down their throat when they aren't ready for it, when THEY weren't the ones making the choice.

Originally Posted by xutees

and eventually they will have the right to protest and make the changes themselves

Note the eventually, and note the amount of desperate unemployed protestors in Iraq that have been shot by Americans.

[Grae]

Originally Posted by Ankhesentapemkah

I can make my dog do tricks without thinking too. Let's all thank the dog.

Obeidience without questions is NOT a virtue, it's stupidity. You have a brain, don't you? USE IT. What you do not seem to have, is a set of YOUR OWN moral principles, and to make up for the lack of it, you just let another person think for you, and let another person decide what's right and wrong.

You obviously have never Served in the Armed Services. And yes we do have brains, however if everyone did their own thing there would be utter chaos and no order. Whether its against your morals or not, disobeying a direct order in a Combat Zone can get you killed or worse cost the lives of the rest of your team. You prey your team leader makes to right choice. Also when the shit hits the fan, its not about you, and if that the way you think you should'nt be there in the first place.

If by chance you are in the forces, you sound like one of those that as soon as they hear war is on their door step, you jump the back fence.

However I doubt you have any military experience what so ever, let alone served any combat duty. So you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.

I am not going to resort to the immature name calling you resorted to. Because all it shows is you lack the understanding and experience to know what you are even talking about.

- Grae
Australian Combat Engineer