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EasyUO users: can you break this?

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HellRazor

Knight
sicron;720910 said:
Mostly Id say they are used, because people have gotten extremely lazy and used to having the tools readily available...
Others mainly to cheat... the rest to have a fighting chance against the cheaters... falls into the category of 'everyone else does it'

I think this may be true in some cases. But you really have to dig a little deeper.

For instance, why do players macro mining? Personally, I think its because mining is boring and isn't very fun for most players. You spend a huge amount of time clicking mountains, several dozen hours at least, sometimes for months on end, and for what? To be able to get ore of a different color.

Then you combine this with the fact that a lot of players don't have months and months of game time to invest in clicking mountains. Its a system that practically invites someone to design a utility to make the chore easier.

I'm not saying it should be easy either, but I'm saying there could be a better (funner) way of achieving the ability to mine valorite that doesn't involve mindless brain-and-finger-numbing repitition.

Example: An extensive in-game quest that the player has to complete to learn how to find valorite. Or a scripted system that automates mining for players (i.e. lets their character mine while offline, or an in-game macro that will let the player's character mine until they log off or physically stop).

But if you're really set on just making them spend hours and hours mining, you have to expect that some players won't want to do that, and some players WILL pursue other options that are available instead of doing without valorite. It's human nature.

Correct in a sense... yes its been about the speed of the clicks... but automating those clicks to a point that the player themselves would never be able to accomplish without a tool removes the level of skill needed to keep track of what needs to be clicked, and physically targeting and clicking those things... kind of what the purpose of the game is supposed to be about...

I think the players determine what the game is to be about. Often it doesn't turn out the way the developers originally intended, UO is living proof. :)

And overall, the players have been proven to prefer means of making some tasks easier. The massive sales of UOAssist, and the huge number of people using Razor and EasyUO, are a testament to this.

Any system that is based on the repitition and speed of mouse clicks literally gives these tools a reason to exist and prosper. I bet if one was to ask CEO why he developed EasyUO the answer would have something to do with being tired of sitting there clicking his mouse to do boring, repetitive tasks. This is one of the worst aspects of UO's design, and one that is not really repeated in any of the later MMORPGs because they learned from UO's successes and mistakes.

Short of totally redesigning UO there is literally no way to prevent this. There are dozens of tools out there (many not even designed for use with UO) that will let players automate mouse clicks.

Again true... to an extent... but without something as easy as euo around it will clear out a majority of the problems that are caused and make it easier for admins to weed out those that continue to cheat using other utilities. The biggest problem with Euo is that it is has become too advanced of a tool for admins to fight... almost any measure they can develop to block Euo, someone will write a script to circumvent it... everyone then uses that script and the block becomes pointless...

The thing is, you need to live in the real world. No matter how anyone feels about it, the fact is, EasyUO, Razor, UOAssist, and many, many other utilities DO exist that do all of the things you wish they couldn't. These tools came into existance because UO has design issues that allow them to work, has system flaws that make them convenient if not necessary, and they fill a void that many players perceive to exist. And with Pandora's Box now open, if you vacate that void, something will take its place to fill the space in again (at least until UO's popularity diminishes to the point where no one bothers with making tools for it). There is literally nothing you can do about it.

CEO could stop development of EasyUO today, but the minute he does, someone else will be looking at making an EasyUO clone. It's really not as difficult as it may seem if you know the tricks. There are even open source tools out there that do many of the same basic things that EasyUO does.

I mean, I understand your frustration, but you should focus your energies on things you can effect rather than things you can't effect. I'd do some brain storming on developing server-side systems that will either cut back on the ability to cheat, or which remove the incentives. I'd also invest time in offering something else for players besides UO-standard stuff. UO *can* be improved and one of the great things about RUO is that it is open source. The sky is literally the limit.

Look at each system in your shard and ask yourself "is this fun" and "how could this work better"...then take action to maximize the fun.

I know eventually people will find other ways than using Euo, but it will take them much longer to develop something thats plug and play enough to be usefull to the masses, and it will take them much longer to write that utility than it would be to write another script for Euo...

I also agree that there are several ways to help fight some of the problems, but many of them just shouldnt have to be added... I also dont want to have to constantly monitor players and spy on their every move...
Again yes the problem will never fully go away... but why should the tools that cause the problems be considered acceptable? As others have said, the devs of the tools should design them with the ability to be blocked or restricted...

Well anyway Ive rambled on this topic enough for this morning... and I think Im pretty much preaching to the choir here for the most part anyway... and we seem to be pretty much in agreement on the core principles of the problem so really not much need to keep repeating ourselves...

There's the perfect world, and then there's the real world.

In the perfect world, none of these tools would exist and none of them would be necessary and every aspect of UO would be so fun that no cheats would be wanted.

In the real world, these tools DO exist, and many players DO want to use them. And they are difficult to track and impossible to block.

So if you really think they are that big of a problem on your shard, you need to look at the things you can actually do something about, because there is no sense getting too bent out of shape about the things you can't effect. We can all complain about 3rd party tools all we want but they are here, have always been here, and they aren't going anywhere.
 

CEO

Sorceror
HellRazor;720933 said:
I bet if one was to ask CEO why he developed EasyUO the answer would have something to do with being tired of sitting there clicking his mouse to do boring, repetitive tasks.
FYI, I'm not the developer, that would be Cheffe. I just do the updates for new clients. I wasn't around at the beginning, but we had an ICQ chat with Cheffe a few years ago which he answered some of those questions. Interesting read HERE.
 

Joeku

Lord
Yeah I don't have a problem with EasyUO at all, I just have a problem with it being used AFK to gain an unfair advantage. My friend and I used it on a shard and macroed seven characters' mining at once, pretty much destroyed their economy with the hundreds of thousands of ingots :eek:
 

HellRazor

Knight
The bigger problem is that UO's game design allows the players to exploit it. Any skill used-based system that relies on repetitive action is open to be exploited by macros.
 

HellRazor

Knight
CEO;720966 said:
FYI, I'm not the developer, that would be Cheffe. I just do the updates for new clients. I wasn't around at the beginning, but we had an ICQ chat with Cheffe a few years ago which he answered some of those questions. Interesting read HERE.

Thanks CEO, that was interesting!

And coincidentally, Jaffe uses mining as the example as to why he got interested in created EasyUO.

<CEO> What prompted you to create EasyUO and what kind
<CEO> of expectations did you have?
* theWZA has joined #euo
<Cheffe> Well, I was mining a lot back then to earn some gold.
* theWZA is now known as theDRUNK
<Cheffe> It really became quite boring and I wanted to automate it somehow.
 

Rosetta

Wanderer
sicron;720903 said:
Yes, there will always be cheating and cheat tools... but just like with piracy, if you take away the simple and widely used cheat tools, you will then only be left with the hardcore cheaters who must be much more saavy to get around the game mechanics.... the problem will still exist, but on a much smaller and manageable scale...
It would then also be easier for admins to quickly find those few and ban them...
As far as not many people using it for combat... you really must be joking... anyone that seriously pvp's has to use at least some sort of pot/pouch popping, healing/curing, casting/target/last target, etc. macro... as I stated before, its become a necessity of the game because chances are if you dont, your opponent will and you will have almost no chance of winning against what is in reality a much lesser skilled pvp'er...
That then also cheapens the game further to the point of just who has the most efficient macro... not exactly what I think Lord Brit had in mind when the game was created...
I do agree that it can be a usefull tool while being used attended for things like mining... but the unattended use for farming has killed many a shard... that in turn is slowly killing the freeshard community in general...
For example...
New shard starts up... within a few weeks it develops a decent player-base...
A handfull of players multi-account and afk farm for a few days and flood out the economy before it even has a chance to develop...
No further player interaction (aside from pvp) is required since everyone else has decided to fully automate everything, so now everyone is fully self sufficient for every item they could possibly need...
Now that pvp is the last thing left that involves multiple players... people start to get bored very quickly... crafters/merchants have already left the server since they are useless, dungeon crawling/pvm'ers leave soon after as they are constantly getting pwned by pvp'ers that are now targeting them as they themselves are bored from trying to outbest each others combat script...
Shard is now left with nobody and collapses...
Players now search out a new shard to begin again, but eventually after cycling through this x number of times, they eventually give up on the game all together... how many times should a player be expected to start over???
Admins feeling like they have failed and not wanting to be just a player themselves... drop out of the community and the community then loses out on the experience and help that admin could have had to offer...
Community slowly dies altogether...

Sounds pretty grim dont it... but its a fact and its happening more and more every day...

*blinks*
:eek: HELP!
Holy Shit! The sky is falling! Everything goes to hell with easy to use macro programs! There are no Admin left to host any more shards! The entire community falls apart and UO free shards everywhere are found dead!
*sarcasm off*

It doesn't sound grim, it sounds unrealistic and extreme.

Because if it was true that things turned out this way, there would be no community here now. UOAssist would of killed it ages ago. PlayUO which does give some very nice advantages to PVP would of killed all fun in pvp. Razor which is a nice mix of abilities of what UOAssist can do and what PlayUO can do would of been a double whammy. And EasyUO would of already reaped what was left and UO would not even exist as a pay game anymore.
 

Mark

Knight


A few considerations:

1. Numbers are more universal than letters. If your server has a large international population this is particularly important.

2. It doesn't have to be complicated, it just has to beat EasyUO. All of these methods are easily defeated by packet analysis (no custom images through gumps).
 

Rosetta

Wanderer
Mark;721522 said:


A few considerations:

1. Numbers are more universal than letters. If your server has a large international population this is particularly important.

2. It doesn't have to be complicated, it just has to beat EasyUO. All of these methods are easily defeated by packet analysis (no custom images through gumps).

That is beautiful!
 

SilverDragon47

Sorceror
Jeff;720579 said:
whats wrong with talking to CEO? does he pee on you when you talk to him or something outrageous like this?

CEO, while a very talented coder, doesn't usually have the time or energy to do coding for others. Read his sig.
 

SilverDragon47

Sorceror
HellRazor;720933 said:
I think this may be true in some cases. But you really have to dig a little deeper.

For instance, why do players macro mining? Personally, I think its because mining is boring and isn't very fun for most players. You spend a huge amount of time clicking mountains, several dozen hours at least, sometimes for months on end, and for what? To be able to get ore of a different color.

Then you combine this with the fact that a lot of players don't have months and months of game time to invest in clicking mountains. Its a system that practically invites someone to design a utility to make the chore easier.

I'm not saying it should be easy either, but I'm saying there could be a better (funner) way of achieving the ability to mine valorite that doesn't involve mindless brain-and-finger-numbing repitition...

Indeed, the mindless brain/finger-numbing repetition... is key to most macroing activity. I use macros to avoid agravating my carpal tunnel syndrome that plagues both wrists. And in the last couple years arthritis has settled into the base joint of both thumbs. Without EUO I wouldn't be able to play a crafting character at all.

The other issue is this: when playing on EA/Origin shards, I resented paying to play AND being bored. I play to releive bordom, not to generate it. So, of course I macro the endless hours of chopping away at trees, hacking at mountain sides, and such. On freeshards I find most admins have already adjusted the rate of skill gain such that it is not required to macro to have fun.

And, folks, having fun is at the core of why we play. If it stops being fun, we quit and move on to something that is.

But, to quote from Dennis Miller Live: "Of course, this is just my opinion; I could be wrong."
 

SilverDragon47

Sorceror
Aulus;720766 said:
Also what ever happened to just sending people messages? 'Hi, are you macroing while AFK?' No reply.... ban.

On my favorite shard, Allure of the Unknown, unattended macroing is only forbidden in towns and the training room. Periodically staff come around to these areas and talk to you. If you don't answer by the third attempt, you are jailed for a short time, first offense; second offence is a longer jail term; third offence is ban and acct deletion. So far, the shard runs pretty smoothly, is fun, and the economy seems pretty healthy.
 
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