Scientific/Philosophical/Religious Debate.

[Xenon]

Why have Earth if a ticket to Heaven was free? Why not just hang ourselves, so we can get there right now? THATS what proof promotes. If faith was ruled out by proof, then we would all behave in a perfect society, and there would be no meaning of heaven if Earth was perfect, because everyone would try to be good to get there. Then people would not have anything to worry about, and the world would slip into a hedonistic lifestyle. Well, I'm assuming a little too much. :? Rather, look at it this way: Why would a divinity be self-evident if there is a reward for faith? As for perfection, if everything were perfect, what would it be compared to? It has to have something imperfect to stand next to to show its splendor. I, myself, do not believe in perfection, as it violates the laws of thermodynamics (disorder in a system). God does not have to be perfect; God only has to be better!

 

[d_pet_vet_seeker]

Why have Earth if a ticket to Heaven was free? Why not just hang ourselves, so we can get there right now? THATS what proof promotes.

If one had proof that there was a heaven, then one should commit suicide in order to go to heaven? Is that what you are saying? Well, isn't that what some people do, in giving their lives completely to God in servitude? You believe that if there was proof that heaven exists, that there would be no point to life. If there is no point to life, then what are theists living for? In order to live their life as a gamble, and not find out until death if there really is a "judgement day." Your pessimistic attitude towards religion astounds me. It was always advertised to me as a reason to live, not a reason to die. So you believe in religion, but faith is only really a fear that your doubts are wrong, and God will punish you if you admit your doubts? Are you living your entire life based on an idea of which you have reasonable doubt? A truly forgiving God would understand the need of his children to consider his existence, and would welcome them with open arms to heaven no matter what they believed during their learning experience of life, not punish them for learning by their own means.

If faith was ruled out by proof, then we would all behave in a perfect society, and there would be no meaning of heaven if Earth was perfect, because everyone would try to be good to get there.

On the contrary, faith exists because humanity needs something in which to believe that is beyond their current circumstances. Faith, in a higher power to settle the score for them, or a reason to accept life as it is given to them, a scapegoat. If it was ruled out, then people would have to accept life for what it is, and take charge of their own life instead of complaining, or playing the victim. With no God to blame, people would be empowered. Yet the dark side of this is, they would have no reason to respect others less powerful than themselves. We all know that Earth is not, and never will be a perfect society, because humans are selfish and overlook the consequences of their actions on others. Why wouldn't a omnipotent God prevent this? Because of free will. Well then, this free will gives me the power to learn. And I can learn through the senses God has entrusted me with.

Then people would not have anything to worry about, and the world would slip into a hedonistic lifestyle.

Are you saying the idea of faith, of consequences is to prevent hedonism? Does the Bible say that hedonism is evil? Where? Why would hedonism be bad?

Rather, look at it this way: Why would a divinity be self-evident if there is a reward for faith?

A divinity would not need to play tricks on humanity, but would be accepting, loving, and forgiving, just as the Bible teaches. Why would a divinity create a species just to send them straight to hell? How is that loving?

As for perfection, if everything were perfect, what would it be compared to? It has to have something imperfect to stand next to to show its splendor. I, myself, do not believe in perfection, as it violates the laws of thermodynamics (disorder in a system). God does not have to be perfect; God only has to be better!

see, and there you are comparing God again... to what, humanity? well, of course, only the Greeks would invent gods and goddesses with imperfections, but they prized the beauty in humanity. We all realize that perfection does not exist, for it to exist would deprive people of a reason to live, as there would be nothing to improve. The whole reason of life is to improve conditions for progeny.

 

[Xenon]

Listen, I don't care what you have as an argument! No one can win this! I'll believe what I want, and you believe what you want.

 

[Jada]

Listen, I don't care what you have as an argument! No one can win this! I'll believe what I want, and you believe what you want.

that's how I feel!

and just as a note, in Dante's Inferno, people who commited suicide went to their own circle of hell, because they didn't treasure life or their bodies...they became trees in hell...^_^;;

 

[d_pet_vet_seeker]

in Dante's Inferno, people who commited suicide went to their own circle of hell, because they didn't treasure life or their bodies...they became trees in hell...^_^;;

So now, not only are there separate levels of hell, but Dante's Inferno (written by Dante Alighieri who was born in 1265 in Florence, Italy) a religous text, too.

 

[Goober]

Many of you seem to be confused about what evolution really is. Evolution occurs each time a mutation occurs in any dna strand. Those of you who believe that evolution is one species mutating into another are mistaken. That process is called faunal sucession. As for god and the universe in the book of jubilees it states that one day in heaven is like one thousand years on earth so one year in heaven would equal 365,000 years on earth if you do the math based on the time structure given in the old testament the age of the earth calculates out to 15 billion years the same as modern science estimates. the bible doesnt say how anything was created other than god spoke and it happend. if you ask me its just a bunch of stupid bullshit anyway. None of it has any significance at all. In fact its a total distraction from the fact that our lives are totally insignificant just a single grain of sand in a vast desert of time. Our lives amount to not even a single second in geologic time. Anyone who believes that what they do with there time on earth has any importance at all is totally diluted and brainwashed with religious bullshit. just ask a dinosaur hehehe!

For anyone who does not believe that evolution occurs there is a well documented scientific example. I the early to mid 1900's Russian fur traders decided to domestically breed a particular species of fox. They only collected specimens of this species which exibited domestic tendancies. About 1 in 1000. They began there breeding program and after several years into the project they found that the foxes genes had mutated and that they were becoming extremely like border collies in appearance.There fine silver fur was now black and white spotted. Evolutions occurs because of several different factors. Location, climate, elevation, and not last but probably most important isolation.

 

[Torment]

oh god you gusy are being bored again i see

 

[kada20]

On the topic of evolution, the following is taken from "The Case Against Darwin" by James Perloff:

Darwin's theory says fish evolved, through many intermediate steps, into human beings. The question thus arises: How did fish acquire the genes to become humans? A creature cannot be anything physically its genes won't allow. A zebra cannot give birth to a baby kangaroo--it only has zebra genes. A woman can't even be born blonde without genes for blonde hair--otherwise, she has to use Miss Clairol.
Genetics was not developed as a science in Darwin's day, and he assumed animals essentially had an unlimited capacity to adapt to environments. He wrote: By this process long continued...it seems to me almost certain that an ordinary hoofed quadruped might be converted into a giraffe. In other words, Darwin believed you could take, say, donkeys, and if you put them in the right environment, they could, given enough time, become giraffes. This simply is not true. Even after millions of years in the jungle, donkeys would still be donkeys, because they only have donkey genes.
To resolve this dilemma, modern evolutionists asserted that the fish's genes must have mutated into human genes over eons--mutations, of course, are abrupt alterations in genes. They generally occur very rarely. According to evolutionary theory, an organism develops some new positive characteristic through a mutation, better adapting it to the environment. The creature then passes this mutated trait on to the next generation, and eventually it spreads through the whole species. Organisms without the trait, being weaker, die out (survival of the fittest). Through this process, fish gradually evolved into men.
However, this hypothesis no longer holds up. Dr. Lee Spetner, who taught information theory for a decade at Johns Hopkins University and the Weizman Institute, spent years studying mutations. He has wrtten an important new book, "Not by Chance: Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution." In it, he writes: In all the reading I've done in the life-sciences literature, I've never found a mutation that added information...All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not increase it.
Mutations delete information from the genetic code. They never create higher, more complex information. What are they actually observed to cause in human beings? Death. Sterility. Hemophilia. Sickle cell anemia. Cystic fibrosis. Down's syndrome. And over 4,000 other diseases. The gentic code is designed to run an organism perfectly--mutations delete information from the code, causing birth defects.
To advance their view, evolutionists have long pointed to mutations with beneficial effects. The most common example given: mutations sometimes make bacteria resistant to antibiotics (germ killing drugs). And so, the argument goes, " If mutations can make bacteria stronger, they must be able to do the same for other creatures." Dr. Spetner points out that this is based on a misunderstanding, for the mutations that cause antibiotic resistance still involve information loss.

The chapter goes on with many examples of how mutations can be misunderstood to be better, but always results in being something less, and at best, neutral. The last paragraph sums it up for the chapter:

Mutations are often inheritable, they do create changes, but the changes are inevitably downward, or at best neutral.. Mutations have never been observed to originate a new hormone, organ, or other functional structure, They reduce, but do not generate, biologic technology. This is not to say it is impossible that a random mutation could create higher genetic informatin--only that it is not observed in science.. And Darwin's theory could die on this alone. But instead, we'll just call this 'strike one' on Darwin.

All in all, a very informative enlightening book.

 

[TheOutkastDev]

Why the hell would you bump a topic that is 9 months old?

 

[psz]

Cuz she hasn't been on the RunUO forums since then (She has her reasons), and it was probably listed as having New Messages.


Still should check the date, though :shock:

 

[Tarnicus]

Well it gave me a good read on New Year's Eve

I've always asked the "why?" question whenever engaging in any sort of debate. Why does a God (if there is one) exist?

What is the purpose of such a 'being'?

Just to create life and then leave it be as a big experiment to see what happens? Possibly...If so, then why do they care about their creations?
NB: I will not use the masculine, as this is one of my many problems when it comes to institutionalised religion.

Institulionalised religion (like governments) has been a means of controlling the masses for thousands of years. Is this necessarily wrong? Theoretically, no, but in practice it has been.

I cannot find a single argument for Creationism that does not get reduced to 'faith' in that which cannot (or has not yet) been proved. The written word has unfortunately been given supremacy as a means of 'evidence', but one must surely consider who wrote it and for what purpose.

Religion has been used countless times to cause harm to others (wars, cultural homogenisation, indigenous genocide, etc), and this is one reason why I am very skeptical of religions. If their core beliefs are to help others (and by this, I do not mean condemning differing views or lifestyles such as the anti-homosexual or anti-abortionist movements which are largely based upon religious beliefs) then PRAISE THE LORD and HALLELUJAH! However theory often differs from practice.

Likewise Darwin's theory has been used by Caucasians to 'prove' our superiority over indigenous populations, and to cause them untold pain and suffering.

What is the difference in me giving credence to evolution theories vs creationist theories? Evidence. Something tangible. I can see the links between species, however I cannot see God(s).

If God(s) exist, then why does such a being(or beings) care about what we think?

Buggered if I know, for I certainly don't care what they think. Perhaps if we could focus such energy on learning to live in harmony with each other and our world, I might have time to give this subject more thought.

If a God wanted to send me to some place bad (like Hell or a Capitalist's Convention ) purely because I questioned their existance, rather than following blindly, then what does that suggest about such a being?

It suggests subservience without questioning their authority. It suggests to me that they are more interested in having people enacting their will without questioning such actions. And to me, an action without questioning "why?" is an ill-thought and stupid thing to do.

So what's the 'answer'? Creationism or Evolution?

I have no idea, nor would I waste too much of my life seeking it. I believe that there are enough problems that humans need to solve before asking "where did I come from?"

Once we live in a peaceful society that can accept difference, one that learns to live in harmony with the world (not the current way we dominate every species as a 'God-given' right), then, and only then, will I wonder about our past origins.

The present and future are in dire need of some serious thought first...

 

[TheOutkastDev]

Go read your bible you athiest scum. I can't believe you just called into question the character of god.

 

[Ryan]

RE FUCKING TARDED

LOCKED