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Joeku

Lord
Anti-Basic said:
I'm not backing down, I never really gave a damn...this is a online forum lol. I have other problems going on in my life than to worry about saving face in an online debate. lol.
I'm glad you don't care about saving face, because you were making yourself look foolish.
Yet, if you never really gave a damn, then why did you keep on arguing? Guess what, I do give a damn, and I'm going to stand up for what I believe when someone tells me that it's wrong.
 

Codeus

Wanderer
When it comes to creation vs evolution, there is no real solid proof either way. It's just a lot of theories, speculations, and opinions on both sides. Creationists fill the holes with God and faith, while evolutionist fill the holes with theories of what could have happened.
As for the original topic, what came first the chicken or the egg. No one can really say for absolute fact. Creationist will say the chicken, and evolutionist will say the egg. I mean no one has come across a nest of egg and as they hatched said, "Duck, duck, duck.......GOOOOSE!" and then ran in fear have they? Or have they? That would explain where that game came from.
 

Joeku

Lord
Codeus said:
When it comes to creation vs evolution, there is no real solid proof either way. It's just a lot of theories, speculations, and opinions on both sides. Creationists fill the holes with God and faith, while evolutionist fill the holes with theories of what could have happened.
As for the original topic, what came first the chicken or the egg. No one can really say for absolute fact. Creationist will say the chicken, and evolutionist will say the egg. I mean no one has come across a nest of egg and as they hatched said, "Duck, duck, duck.......GOOOOSE!" and then ran in fear have they? Or have they? That would explain where that game came from.
Probably the most intelligent statement in this thread.
Both sides have some proof, and they both have some unanswered questions. It all depends on whether you choose to believe guesses, or just accept it as unexplainable.
 

Marlberg

Wanderer
JoeKu said:
Evolution is a theory, and creationism is, too.

About that last part where creationism is a theory? Nope Sorry doesnt fit the definition of a theory. You of course are free to call it whatever you like. The same as if you called Butter, Pig Shit. doenst make the butter any more pig shit than it does making Pig Shit, butter. They both are byproducts of Animal Husbandry, they both contain Highly Ordered Hydrocarbon compounds and are prone to decomposition by bacteria.

This is where the intelligence falls down of course. Most people, yourself included of course JoeKu havent the foggiest notion of what a Theory actuall is. I will Enlighten You.

Theory (thee-u-ry Gk 'theorein' to look at) n: A step in the scientific method in which a statement is generated on the basis of highly confirmed hypotheses and is used to generalize about conditions not yet tested.

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory. Commonly, a large number of more specific hypotheses may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a general rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific applications of a theory. -source Wiki

Scientific Method: refers to a body of techniques for the investigation of phenomena and the acquisition of new knowledge of the natural world, as well as the correction and integration of previous knowledge, based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning.

Although specialized procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass whole domains of inquiry serve to bind more specific hypotheses together into logically coherent wholes. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.

There are a number of different ways of outlining the basic method shared by all of the fields of scientific inquiry. The following examples are typical classifications of the most important components of the method on which there is very wide agreement in the scientific community and among philosophers of science, each of which are subject only to marginal disagreements about a few very specific aspects.



  • Description. Information must be reliable, i.e., replicable (repeatable) as well as valid (relevant to the inquiry).
  • Prediction. Information must be valid for observations past, present, and future of given phenomena, i.e., purported "one shot" phenomena do not give rise to the capability to predict, nor to the ability to repeat an experiment.

  • Control. Actively and fairly sampling the range of possible occurrences, whenever possible and proper, as opposed to the passive acceptance of opportunistic data, is the best way to control or counterbalance the risk of empirical bias.

  • Understanding. Identification of the cause or causes of a particular phenomenon to the best achievable extent. Before a factor that is the object of research can be said to be understood, the following conditions must be met:

    • Covariation of events. The hypothesized cause must correlate with observed effect.

    • Time-order relationship. The hypothesized cause must occur before observed effect.

    • Elimination of plausible alternatives. This is a gradual process which requires repeated experiments by multiple researchers who must be able to replicate the results to validate them.
The last of these is the most frequently contentious area, which leads to the following: All hypotheses and theories are in principle subject to disproof. Thus, there is a point at which there might be a consensus about a particular hypothesis or theory, yet it must in principle remain tentative. As a body of knowledge grows and a particular hypothesis or theory repeatedly brings predictable results, confidence in the hypothesis or theory increases. -sources Wiki, NASA, Cambridge University, MIT

The problem is of course that creationism as a "Theory" doesnt meet the qualifcations of a theory as defined by the scientific method. Now you may go right ahead and call it a theory if you wish, but to a scientist, and yes Before you go there I AM a Scientist having earned a Bachelors of Science Degree in Computer Science and in Physics with a Math Minor from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. Makes me a pedigreed member of the class of folks known as Scientists, creationism can not be a Theory by definition as Creationism does not meet Tenet number 3 of a theory: it is not testable. You Cannot Test whether there exists A God you may only believe there is or isnt. By definition from the bible: Faith is the evidence of things not seen. A Theory (remember that greek root form?) means to look at. Therefore by that logic creationism (the belief that there is a God and that he created the universe in 7 days) is no more a Theory than say, cream cheese being Portland Cement.

Again it doesnt meet the definition of a Theory in that it is not predictive. Creationism does not and can not predict from past evidence what future possible paths are available to anything within its domain.

And again it doesnt meet the definition of a Theory in that it is not logicaly consistent. Logicaly consistent means that it must not argue with itself on major points of contention. Yet Creationsim does just that when it says that a creator created items in a specific order from the Sun Moon Stars an Seas to Man and has at its central point a being who is a direct image of said creator and that being who is perfect in all ways manufactured something that was not in itself perfect. I am of course speaking of mankind here as Mankind is made with flaws and a creator who created everything in the universe and who is himself perfect would not create a flawed being as the art or science of creation is to add order to chaos not to add chaos to order.

So in no way does creationism meet the definition of a theory yet you would call it that. Fine, but dont expect people who actually use their heads for something other than a hatrack to accept your premise tht creationism is a theory.

And dont expect a scientist who is worth his degree to do anything but laugh at you when you bring up that "Intelligent Design" or "Creationism" should be given equal time in the science department.

You want the Philosophy department not the Science department my child they are a little more "open minded" over there.

--EDIT--
In the above I referenced myself as a member of a group known as scientists. I am a pedigreed member of that classification of people. That does not mean that it is an exclusive club. All one really needs to be a scientist is curiosity about ones surrondings and an ability to follow basic procedures when observing and or experimentation. The degree looks nice on my wall but it really doesnt mean anything other than I achieved enough credits to graduate at my University. Being a Scientist has nothing to do with education it has to do instead with learning. I welcome anyone who wishes to learn, as I welcome all opportunities to learn about myself and my surrondings.
 

Marlberg

Wanderer
Joeku said:
I'm glad you don't care about saving face, because you were making yourself look foolish.
Yet, if you never really gave a damn, then why did you keep on arguing? Guess what, I do give a damn, and I'm going to stand up for what I believe when someone tells me that it's wrong.

Nobody should ever say that your belief in God is wrong. By all means stand up for what you belive but just do not fool yourself into thinking that your belief is somehow made in to fact by the misrepresentation of your belief as science.
 
Marlberg said:
About that last part where creationism is a theory? Nope Sorry doesnt fit the definition of a theory. You of course are free to call it whatever you like. The same as if you called Butter, Pig Shit. doenst make the butter any more pig shit than it does making Pig Shit, butter. They both are byproducts of Animal Husbandry, they both contain Highly Ordered Hydrocarbon compounds and are prone to decomposition by bacteria.

This is where the intelligence falls down of course. Most people, yourself included of course JoeKu havent the foggiest notion of what a Theory actuall is. I will Enlighten You.

Theory (thee-u-ry Gk 'theorein' to look at) n: A step in the scientific method in which a statement is generated on the basis of highly confirmed hypotheses and is used to generalize about conditions not yet tested.

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory. Commonly, a large number of more specific hypotheses may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a general rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific applications of a theory. -source Wiki

Scientific Method: refers to a body of techniques for the investigation of phenomena and the acquisition of new knowledge of the natural world, as well as the correction and integration of previous knowledge, based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning.

Although specialized procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass whole domains of inquiry serve to bind more specific hypotheses together into logically coherent wholes. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.

There are a number of different ways of outlining the basic method shared by all of the fields of scientific inquiry. The following examples are typical classifications of the most important components of the method on which there is very wide agreement in the scientific community and among philosophers of science, each of which are subject only to marginal disagreements about a few very specific aspects.



  • Description. Information must be reliable, i.e., replicable (repeatable) as well as valid (relevant to the inquiry).
  • Prediction. Information must be valid for observations past, present, and future of given phenomena, i.e., purported "one shot" phenomena do not give rise to the capability to predict, nor to the ability to repeat an experiment.

  • Control. Actively and fairly sampling the range of possible occurrences, whenever possible and proper, as opposed to the passive acceptance of opportunistic data, is the best way to control or counterbalance the risk of empirical bias.

  • Understanding. Identification of the cause or causes of a particular phenomenon to the best achievable extent. Before a factor that is the object of research can be said to be understood, the following conditions must be met:

    • Covariation of events. The hypothesized cause must correlate with observed effect.

    • Time-order relationship. The hypothesized cause must occur before observed effect.

    • Elimination of plausible alternatives. This is a gradual process which requires repeated experiments by multiple researchers who must be able to replicate the results to validate them.
The last of these is the most frequently contentious area, which leads to the following: All hypotheses and theories are in principle subject to disproof. Thus, there is a point at which there might be a consensus about a particular hypothesis or theory, yet it must in principle remain tentative. As a body of knowledge grows and a particular hypothesis or theory repeatedly brings predictable results, confidence in the hypothesis or theory increases. -sources Wiki, NASA, Cambridge University, MIT

The problem is of course that creationism as a "Theory" doesnt meet the qualifcations of a theory as defined by the scientific method. Now you may go right ahead and call it a theory if you wish, but to a scientist, and yes Before you go there I AM a Scientist having earned a Bachelors of Science Degree in Computer Science and in Physics with a Math Minor from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. Makes me a pedigreed member of the class of folks known as Scientists, creationism can not be a Theory by definition as Creationism does not meet Tenet number 3 of a theory: it is not testable. You Cannot Test whether there exists A God you may only believe there is or isnt. By definition from the bible: Faith is the evidence of things not seen. A Theory (remember that greek root form?) means to look at. Therefore by that logic creationism (the belief that there is a God and that he created the universe in 7 days) is no more a Theory than say, cream cheese being Portland Cement.

Again it doesnt meet the definition of a Theory in that it is not predictive. Creationism does not and can not predict from past evidence what future possible paths are available to anything within its domain.

And again it doesnt meet the definition of a Theory in that it is not logicaly consistent. Logicaly consistent means that it must not argue with itself on major points of contention. Yet Creationsim does just that when it says that a creator created items in a specific order from the Sun Moon Stars an Seas to Man and has at its central point a being who is a direct image of said creator and that being who is perfect in all ways manufactured something that was not in itself perfect. I am of course speaking of mankind here as Mankind is made with flaws and a creator who created everything in the universe and who is himself perfect would not create a flawed being as the art or science of creation is to add order to chaos not to add chaos to order.

So in no way does creationism meet the definition of a theory yet you would call it that. Fine, but dont expect people who actually use their heads for something other than a hatrack to accept your premise tht creationism is a theory.

And dont expect a scientist who is worth his degree to do anything but laugh at you when you bring up that "Intelligent Design" or "Creationism" should be given equal time in the science department.

You want the Philosophy department not the Science department my child they are a little more "open minded" over there.
All our base are belong to Marlberg.
 

Maynza

Formerly DontdroptheSOAD
Marlberg said:
About that last part where creationism is a theory? Nope Sorry doesnt fit the definition of a theory. You of course are free to call it whatever you like. The same as if you called Butter, Pig Shit. doenst make the butter any more pig shit than it does making Pig Shit, butter. They both are byproducts of Animal Husbandry, they both contain Highly Ordered Hydrocarbon compounds and are prone to decomposition by bacteria.

This is where the intelligence falls down of course. Most people, yourself included of course JoeKu havent the foggiest notion of what a Theory actuall is. I will Enlighten You.

Theory (thee-u-ry Gk 'theorein' to look at) n: A step in the scientific method in which a statement is generated on the basis of highly confirmed hypotheses and is used to generalize about conditions not yet tested.

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections or inclusion in a yet wider theory. Commonly, a large number of more specific hypotheses may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a general rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific applications of a theory. -source Wiki

Scientific Method: refers to a body of techniques for the investigation of phenomena and the acquisition of new knowledge of the natural world, as well as the correction and integration of previous knowledge, based on observable, empirical, measurable evidence, and subject to laws of reasoning.

Although specialized procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass whole domains of inquiry serve to bind more specific hypotheses together into logically coherent wholes. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.

There are a number of different ways of outlining the basic method shared by all of the fields of scientific inquiry. The following examples are typical classifications of the most important components of the method on which there is very wide agreement in the scientific community and among philosophers of science, each of which are subject only to marginal disagreements about a few very specific aspects.



  • Description. Information must be reliable, i.e., replicable (repeatable) as well as valid (relevant to the inquiry).
  • Prediction. Information must be valid for observations past, present, and future of given phenomena, i.e., purported "one shot" phenomena do not give rise to the capability to predict, nor to the ability to repeat an experiment.

  • Control. Actively and fairly sampling the range of possible occurrences, whenever possible and proper, as opposed to the passive acceptance of opportunistic data, is the best way to control or counterbalance the risk of empirical bias.

  • Understanding. Identification of the cause or causes of a particular phenomenon to the best achievable extent. Before a factor that is the object of research can be said to be understood, the following conditions must be met:

    • Covariation of events. The hypothesized cause must correlate with observed effect.

    • Time-order relationship. The hypothesized cause must occur before observed effect.

    • Elimination of plausible alternatives. This is a gradual process which requires repeated experiments by multiple researchers who must be able to replicate the results to validate them.
The last of these is the most frequently contentious area, which leads to the following: All hypotheses and theories are in principle subject to disproof. Thus, there is a point at which there might be a consensus about a particular hypothesis or theory, yet it must in principle remain tentative. As a body of knowledge grows and a particular hypothesis or theory repeatedly brings predictable results, confidence in the hypothesis or theory increases. -sources Wiki, NASA, Cambridge University, MIT

The problem is of course that creationism as a "Theory" doesnt meet the qualifcations of a theory as defined by the scientific method. Now you may go right ahead and call it a theory if you wish, but to a scientist, and yes Before you go there I AM a Scientist having earned a Bachelors of Science Degree in Computer Science and in Physics with a Math Minor from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. Makes me a pedigreed member of the class of folks known as Scientists, creationism can not be a Theory by definition as Creationism does not meet Tenet number 3 of a theory: it is not testable. You Cannot Test whether there exists A God you may only believe there is or isnt. By definition from the bible: Faith is the evidence of things not seen. A Theory (remember that greek root form?) means to look at. Therefore by that logic creationism (the belief that there is a God and that he created the universe in 7 days) is no more a Theory than say, cream cheese being Portland Cement.

Again it doesnt meet the definition of a Theory in that it is not predictive. Creationism does not and can not predict from past evidence what future possible paths are available to anything within its domain.

And again it doesnt meet the definition of a Theory in that it is not logicaly consistent. Logicaly consistent means that it must not argue with itself on major points of contention. Yet Creationsim does just that when it says that a creator created items in a specific order from the Sun Moon Stars an Seas to Man and has at its central point a being who is a direct image of said creator and that being who is perfect in all ways manufactured something that was not in itself perfect. I am of course speaking of mankind here as Mankind is made with flaws and a creator who created everything in the universe and who is himself perfect would not create a flawed being as the art or science of creation is to add order to chaos not to add chaos to order.

So in no way does creationism meet the definition of a theory yet you would call it that. Fine, but dont expect people who actually use their heads for something other than a hatrack to accept your premise tht creationism is a theory.

And dont expect a scientist who is worth his degree to do anything but laugh at you when you bring up that "Intelligent Design" or "Creationism" should be given equal time in the science department.

You want the Philosophy department not the Science department my child they are a little more "open minded" over there.

Exactlly, you rock, and you remind me of my science teacher.
*hugs*

Thats what I tried to say in the beginning, but I didn't say it nearly as well. Plus I am not as knowledgable as you.
 

TMSTKSBK

Lord
UNC-* = failure.

UNC-CH = spawn of devil.

I was highly aware of what a theory was, thanks...one of those things that comes with being an engineering major...

(For all of you that don't know, UNC-CH and NCSU are arch rivals. So relax.)
 

Marlberg

Wanderer
TMSTKSBK said:
UNC-* = failure.

UNC-CH = spawn of devil.

I was highly aware of what a theory was, thanks...one of those things that comes with being an engineering major...

(For all of you that don't know, UNC-CH and NCSU are arch rivals. So relax.)

NCSU==Troll

Aye TMS I knew you were aware however I dont think JoeKu really was

Of course we will always have March 1978 to brag on wont we?
we of course being the 49ers vs NCSU for a berth at the final four

Please smack David with a trout.

trouts name wouldnt be Kilgore by chance would it?
 

TMSTKSBK

Lord
Meh -- I'm a geek, not a sports fan...usually ;)

Anyhow, Creationism is a system of beliefs at its core, but Intelligent Design, which basically takes most of its cues from Creationism, is a theory. That theory being, summarily --

Since there is so much complexity in the world, and, given the law of entropy, there must have been some entity that reversed the law of entropy, in some manner, allowing the existence of highly organized matter that performs tasks necessary for life as we know it.

Most interpretations of this theory also include the being (entity) being active in the process of entropy-reversal, designing the changes it allowed.
Creationism is largely a subset of ID, with the addition and specification of the entity as being God, and a specification of the order and process by which ID was performed by God.

Either way, it's a theory -- There is indeed order in the world, and the law of entropy is indeed a law. If you don't *like* the theory, then, hey, it's a free world :).

(Entropy really does stand Evolution on its head from my pov...)
 
Well I don't care what came first the chicken or the egg...We have Chickens and Eggs so its all good..Lol :p

As far as getting into religious beliefs you'll have to expect debates from both sides and lots of flames going on, which this is what happened in this case...Everyone has their own beliefs or non beliefs in God...I believe you can't push it on people no matter what side your own...I'm personally a Christian and I believe in God, but I'm not going to debate what I believe or don't believe in...I know how I feel and I respect how others feel over their beliefs...

Respecting others beliefs is one thing I believe in doing..;) My beliefs are strong and nobody can change how I believe, so why argue over it? There is no reason to...As others peoples beliefs, they are strong and I don't think its right for them to have to explain to me or prove to me anything...We all believe differently, but you stick with your beliefs, you just dont have to push them on people that don't believe the same as we do...;)
 
I didnt realize everyone was still asking... How many freaking times do I have to say this?! It was the damn easter bunny!!! Gawd damn! God? no. Science? no hah.. all jokes! lol. Easter bunny pwns.

Easter Bunny > Colored Egg > Chicken

Simple as that.

-Storm

PS
Hopefully, that didnt offend anybody, didnt mean for it to, take it as a joke :cool:
 

Marlberg

Wanderer
TMSTKSBK said:
Meh -- I'm a geek, not a sports fan...usually ;)

Anyhow, Creationism is a system of beliefs at its core, but Intelligent Design, which basically takes most of its cues from Creationism, is a theory. That theory being, summarily --

Since there is so much complexity in the world, and, given the law of entropy, there must have been some entity that reversed the law of entropy, in some manner, allowing the existence of highly organized matter that performs tasks necessary for life as we know it.

Most interpretations of this theory also include the being (entity) being active in the process of entropy-reversal, designing the changes it allowed.
Creationism is largely a subset of ID, with the addition and specification of the entity as being God, and a specification of the order and process by which ID was performed by God.

Either way, it's a theory -- There is indeed order in the world, and the law of entropy is indeed a law. If you don't *like* the theory, then, hey, it's a free world :).

(Entropy really does stand Evolution on its head from my pov...)

*Sighs*

Once More Unto the breach eh?

Surely you are not going to be so cliche as to bring up the evolution of the eye are you? How very quaint.

Well lets start with Entropy.

Entropy: In classical thermodynamics, entropy, when multiplied by a specific temperature, can be understood as a measure of the amount of energy in a physical system at a specified temperature that cannot be used to do thermodynamic work; i.e., work mediated by thermal energy. More precisely, in any process where the system gives up energy ΔE, and its entropy falls by ΔS, a quantity at least TR ΔS of that energy must be given up to the system's surroundings as unusable heat (TR is the temperature of the system's external surroundings). Otherwise the process will not go forward.

All this says is that there is a specific amount of heat that must be generated in a closed system prior to any work being done within that system. Now if youtake the Universe at large as a closed system we have no way in which to measure the required amount of heat necessary to do a given amount of work as we do not yet know the amount of available energy in the universe and as that can only be measured from OUTSIDE the closed system (the universe ) and we are PART of that closed system we cannot define adequately what entropy value must be reached prior to any work being done.

as to there not being Time to have done all that evolution has done, depends on whos figures you use for the age of the earth. If you use some addlepated Intelligent Design supporters figures of several thousand years then why certinly there is not enough time for an entity like the human eye to have evolved from base pairs in the genome. If however you take into account the actual measured age of th oldest known rocks on the earth and add a few hundrred million to a billion or so years to that age for formation of the earth you come up with a figure that is just less than the current age of our sun. Now surely if gravity, the weakest of all known forces in the universe, can go from a highly disorganized cloud of dust particles to a fusing ball of hydrogen gas in something under a billion years time; and we must remember that gravitational evolution takes place at a MUCH more leisurely pace than say cellular mutation, we find that from that highly isotropic cloud to the huge burning ball of gas more than adequately allows enough time for all evolutionary processes to have happened within its boundaries of formation. Yes the eye is specialized, but it arose from non specialized material and so did not have to depend Solely on mutation but could instead depend on other forces at work at the molecular level such as tetrigination triploydy, and other cellular functions that would allow adaptation to arise much much quicker than Intelligent Design would say possible even given the length of time of the age of the earth. So its not impossible that evolution did just that and as a matter of fact from all we know so far it is VERY possible.

Intelligent Design on the other hand still suffers from the fact that it ISNT Testable. It ISNT Predictive. And it is ONLY Logically consistent if you introduce Faith as an element.

Therefore sorry to disappoint you but Intelligent Design is NOT a theory based on this logic alone. When you can bring to me a TRUE theory one that is Predictive Logically consistent without introduction of outside variables, and is in some form or other TESTABLE ie falsifiable (can be shown to be in error or at least can be defined as either being true or false based on observable data) then you will have brought before me a Theory and we may debate the merits there of But until you DO bring something to the table that meets these qualifications, then you are wasting your breath, as apparently am I.

I am quite willing to believe in God. I am not willing to accept from others that he exists merely on their say so. God is infallable Humans are not.

Intelligent Design is again no more a scientific theory than cream cheese is Portland cement.

If you can PROVE ID meets the criteria of a Theory as accepted by reputable published scientists the world over, then certainly Prove it.

If you can not, do not delude others into thinking that it IS a theory. You may call it what you like when in discourse with those who agree with you but when you are among those who may or may not agree with you your best bet is to make sure that before you refer to it as a theory that it is Indeed a theory by definition.

Show me how you would test for the absense of The Creator that your theory espouses must exist.

If you cannot do this then you cannot test all parameters within your theory and the theory then is not valid as a theory.
 

Joeku

Lord
@Marlberg: words can be used in different contexts...
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theory said:
the·o·ry
n. pl. the·o·ries
  1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
  2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
  3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
  4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
  5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
  6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
Mine's in green, yours is in red. Thank you for your wonderful insight, posting an actual *intelligent* refute (even though it was misplaced). I do thank you for clearing that up.

P.S. It's "Joeku," the "k" isn't capitalized ;)
P.P.S. "The same as if you called Butter, Pig Shit. doenst make the butter any more pig shit than it does making Pig Shit, butter. They both are byproducts of Animal Husbandry, they both contain Highly Ordered Hydrocarbon compounds and are prone to decomposition by bacteria." nice... lol.
 

Maynza

Formerly DontdroptheSOAD
Joeku said:
Originally Posted by http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=theory
the·o·ry
n. pl. the·o·ries

1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

Marlberg already covered why this is not true about religion.
 
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