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TMSTKSBK

TMSTKSBK

Lord
personally I look at the existence of God a different way.

I find awe in observing nature -- in the patterns, the complexity, the interdependence.

If someone definitively proved that God existed, I would still find great pleasure in discovering the way the universe works, based solely on the fact that I would be following in God's footsteps.

This is one of the motivations behind me becoming an engineer...the other major one being to aid society in the quest towards a perfect world. The first cannot be achieved by my major, but it may help others in that quest. The second can only ever be partially achieved, but I would like to assist in it...
 
M

Marlberg

Wanderer
Joeku said:
I was bored, and thought "You don't need a spreadsheet for that... you can do it in C#! :D
Here's the code:
Code: 
using System;
using Server;

namespace Server.Misc
{
	public class Function
	{
		public static void Initialize(){ Server.Commands.Register( "Function1", AccessLevel.Player, new CommandEventHandler( Function1_OnCommand ) );
										 Server.Commands.Register( "Function2", AccessLevel.Player, new CommandEventHandler( Function2_OnCommand ) ); }

		public static void Function1_OnCommand( CommandEventArgs e )
		{
			double x = 0.1, r = 1.475;
			
			Console.WriteLine( "Function 1:" );
			Console.WriteLine( "-------------------" );
			for( int i = 0; i < 100; ++i )
			{
				double X = r * x * ( x-1 );
				Console.WriteLine( "X = {0}", X );
				x = X;
			}
			Console.WriteLine( "-------------------" );
			Console.WriteLine();
		}

		public static void Function2_OnCommand( CommandEventArgs e )
		{
			double x = 0.4, r = 1.7;

			Console.WriteLine( "Function 2:" );
			Console.WriteLine( "-------------------" );
			for( int i = 0; i < 100; ++i )
			{
				double X = r * x * ( x-1 );
				Console.WriteLine( "X = {0}", X );
				x = X;
			}
			Console.WriteLine( "-------------------" );
			Console.WriteLine();
		}
	}
}
Results when using [Function1:
Code: 
Function 1:
-------------------
X = -0.0146025
X = 0.0218532061842188
X = -0.0315290742564409
X = 0.047971656250366
X = -0.06736380525927
X = 0.106054989089461
X = -0.139840809358576
X = 0.23510948544794
X = -0.265253697568009
X = 0.495029501921227
X = -0.368713558869552
X = 0.744378289861609
X = -0.280661895880365
X = 0.530163668627301
X = -0.36740797581504
X = 0.741034979848629
X = -0.283055654271822
X = 0.53568483258843
X = -0.366871724266625
X = 0.739663214841163
X = -0.284028276591698
X = 0.537932999280638
X = -0.366627604159223
X = 0.739039021328864
X = -0.284469010766155
X = 0.538952652557333
X = -0.366511969016653
X = 0.738743413862447
X = -0.284677333947524
X = 0.539434814656216
X = -0.366456220704719
X = 0.73860091403691
X = -0.284777665635608
X = 0.539667077108699
X = -0.366429121415637
X = 0.738531648094683
X = -0.28482641296442
X = 0.539779935267733
X = -0.36641589620639
X = 0.738497845168705
X = -0.284850197328579
X = 0.539835002563897
X = -0.366409429541833
X = 0.738481316908532
X = -0.284861825691219
X = 0.539861926005347
X = -0.366406264611338
X = 0.738473227652713
X = -0.284867516547024
X = 0.539875102332772
X = -0.366404714915578
X = 0.738469266791217
X = -0.284870302974188
X = 0.53988155392392
X = -0.366403955943505
X = 0.738467326939968
X = -0.284871667623607
X = 0.539884713591436
X = -0.36640358419205
X = 0.738466376783727
X = -0.284872336036872
X = 0.539886261217065
X = -0.366403402095033
X = 0.738465911363725
X = -0.284872663448265
X = 0.539887019296852
X = -0.366403312895129
X = 0.73846568337859
X = -0.284872823829904
X = 0.539887390640423
X = -0.36640326920015
X = 0.738465571699044
X = -0.284872902393516
X = 0.539887572544642
X = -0.366403247795831
X = 0.738465516991968
X = -0.284872940878486
X = 0.539887661651784
X = -0.36640323731073
X = 0.738465490193208
X = -0.284872959730697
X = 0.539887705301725
X = -0.3664032321745
X = 0.73846547706557
X = -0.284872968965638
X = 0.539887726684079
X = -0.366403229658465
X = 0.738465470634863
X = -0.284872973489468
X = 0.539887737158444
X = -0.366403228425959
X = 0.738465467484714
X = -0.284872975705513
X = 0.53988774228942
X = -0.366403227822203
X = 0.73846546594158
X = -0.284872976791066
X = 0.539887744802883
X = -0.366403227526447
X = 0.73846546518566
-------------------
Results when using [Function2:
Code: 
Function 2:
-------------------
X = -0.408
X = 0.9765888
X = -0.0388672967147521
X = 0.06864253789673
X = -0.108682257809304
X = 0.204839954652115
X = -0.276896930971398
X = 0.601067030299722
X = -0.407635274156872
X = 0.975463044519493
X = -0.0406893186036328
X = 0.0719863967285032
X = -0.113567404204735
X = 0.214990431154311
X = -0.286908227632871
X = 0.62768174981772
X = -0.397285530297925
X = 0.943706248899448
X = -0.0903120999688886
X = 0.167396238128454
X = -0.236937053901124
X = 0.498229576401195
X = -0.424994671520477
X = 1.02954574198017
X = 0.0517117778438567
X = -0.0833640387893434
X = 0.153533122979445
X = -0.22093319531696
X = 0.458565942586867
X = -0.422081472106685
X = 1.02039821004413
X = 0.0353843049291329
X = -0.0580248350194855
X = 0.104365918047491
X = -0.158905244435912
X = 0.313065405946753
X = -0.365594277828451
X = 0.848730871475909
X = -0.21825752477541
X = 0.452019582224048
X = -0.421086395167077
X = 1.0172802505152
X = 0.0298840578742093
X = -0.0492847016306063
X = 0.0879132618572211
X = -0.136313684419636
X = 0.263321678465477
X = -0.329771732596521
X = 0.745485917967596
X = -0.322552328935331
X = 0.725206967522793
X = -0.338779097024619
X = 0.771035635129239
X = -0.300117463633153
X = 0.663319524538274
X = -0.379655445937806
X = 0.89044929606567
X = -0.165833890243099
X = 0.32866910797364
X = -0.375097733243668
X = 0.87685327263795
X = -0.183568738533514
X = 0.36935257451051
X = -0.395983125362046
X = 0.939735793587017
X = -0.0962751341252737
X = 0.179424860479392
X = -0.250293685866283
X = 0.531999045586381
X = -0.423259303838653
X = 1.02409316161188
X = 0.0419451914821687
X = -0.068315847069278
X = 0.124070933451121
X = -0.18475147277027
X = 0.372103785083792
X = -0.397192348957182
X = 0.943421988746419
X = -0.0907407978234894
X = 0.168256973362326
X = -0.237909159271368
X = 0.500666876472181
X = -0.42499924396881
X = 1.02956012228288
X = 0.0517376692908405
X = -0.0834035008742266
X = 0.153611396214916
X = -0.221025389785295
X = 0.458791941615561
X = -0.422113223071114
X = 1.02049775347642
X = 0.0355604493357945
X = -0.0583030364240125
X = 0.104893876816463
X = -0.159614957418888
X = 0.314656216486227
X = -0.36660105925176
X = 0.851695573023662
X = -0.214727380656449
X = 0.443419888722048
-------------------
Function 1 didn't "stabilize," but it did keep similarly repeating three variables.

Even though it doesn't appear that you change the variables very much, "x" is increased fortyfold and "r" is increased by 15%. Multiplying a number by 40 is a lot, no matter which light you put it in. Saying that there isn't a large difference in equation is like saying "400 isn't much more than 10." Just move the decimal point ;)
Click to expand...

Of course if you play around with the intital values as I expected you might then you will find that weird things happen around a value of 3.6...n for r and
Quantitatively no 400 is NOT that much more than 10 certainly not larger than the difference between 400 and 400,000 right? You missed the point sorry it is not the difference in the initial values in that equation that make the difference it is that the initial values have a difference. you will come up with iterations that startle you at less than the difference you mentioned of 40 times by varying the other constant slightly. as a matter of fact if you play around with that program of yours in its inital values, you will see that at 3.5...n -> 3.6...n for r the equation stabilizes with 16 or so attractors. but at 3.6....+.000000n or whatever prrecision you have available to you you will find that that extra little tiny bit which is much smaller than mentioned above is enough to grab chaotic non singular solutions to the equation. It has quite literally reached the boundary point. and it is indeed a very very small change that the initial condition equation starts with try this combination a value in the range of 2.7 to 4 for r and a stable value of .2 or of -.2 and see what that does to your program?
 
J

Joeku

Lord
Marlberg said:
Of course if you play around with the intital values as I expected you might then you will find that weird things happen around a value of 3.6...n for r and
Quantitatively no 400 is NOT that much more than 10 certainly not larger than the difference between 400 and 400,000 right? You missed the point sorry it is not the difference in the initial values in that equation that make the difference it is that the initial values have a difference. you will come up with iterations that startle you at less than the difference you mentioned of 40 times by varying the other constant slightly. as a matter of fact if you play around with that program of yours in its inital values, you will see that at 3.5...n -> 3.6...n for r the equation stabilizes with 16 or so attractors. but at 3.6....+.000000n or whatever prrecision you have available to you you will find that that extra little tiny bit which is much smaller than mentioned above is enough to grab chaotic non singular solutions to the equation. It has quite literally reached the boundary point. and it is indeed a very very small change that the initial condition equation starts with try this combination a value in the range of 2.7 to 4 for r and a stable value of .2 or of -.2 and see what that does to your program?
Click to expand...
Please re-read my post. Right after I posted, I noticed that I'd changed one of the variables, so I quickly redid it correctly and edited the post. Sorry about that :eek:
 
M

Marlberg

Wanderer
Joeku said:
Please re-read my post. Right after I posted, I noticed that I'd changed one of the variables, so I quickly redid it correctly and edited the post. Sorry about that :eek:
Click to expand...

Hey when dealing with these equations that can cause a HUGE magnitude of difference:eek: but trust me you will get hooked on these numbers. you will iterate and iterate and say what the hell happened on this one it suddenly went off the chart!! Then you will get into other functions sa z=z^2+C in the complex plane and you will want to graph it

The next thing you know youve rebuilt Chaos 3.2

Adding colors to it where the numbers aproach the edge and you will say to yourself MAN what have I invented :)
 
M

Marlberg

Wanderer
TMSTKSBK said:
personally I look at the existence of God a different way.

I find awe in observing nature -- in the patterns, the complexity, the interdependence.

If someone definitively proved that God existed, I would still find great pleasure in discovering the way the universe works, based solely on the fact that I would be following in God's footsteps.

This is one of the motivations behind me becoming an engineer...the other major one being to aid society in the quest towards a perfect world. The first cannot be achieved by my major, but it may help others in that quest. The second can only ever be partially achieved, but I would like to assist in it...
Click to expand...

But you leave out an important piece of information there. Let us suppose that someone, you perhaps Do manage to prove the existence of God. That direct observable communication between you and the Almighty is possible, and that Given a question the Creator has no reason NOT to answer the question, Why would you continue to question? as an Omnipresent Omnicient being who created everything would He not know all of the answers? Would you not just ask Him rather than seek the answers on your own thus enriching your experience the way man is supposed to enrich it by experiencing it? I too am in awe of the power of nature, of its vast beauty and of its very base quests to continue at all costs. I do not necessarily need to see the artists signature in the bottom right hand corner of the canvas in order to know that the painting is the work of a Master. If it is not there it does not diminish nor does it increase the value of the painting, especially if by observation of His other works I might discern who is the likelyauthor of the painting. Leaving that bit of mystery to generation upon generation is my legacy, as I did not paint the painting I simply figured out what oils He used on His brush, and what frame He used to stretch His canvas upon. If someone later discovers another of His works then that can be added to the mystery of His collection
 
J

Joeku

Lord
Marlberg said:
Hey when dealing with these equations that can cause a HUGE magnitude of difference:eek: but trust me you will get hooked on these numbers. you will iterate and iterate and say what the hell happened on this one it suddenly went off the chart!! Then you will get into other functions sa z=z^2+C in the complex plane and you will want to graph it

The next thing you know youve rebuilt Chaos 3.2

Adding colors to it where the numbers aproach the edge and you will say to yourself MAN what have I invented :)
Click to expand...
What I was trying to say is (trash the previous "260") when you change the variables with inequal amounts, the results will not be equal because it is a COMPLETELY different equation. You increased x by .39, and you increased r by .225. You increased x by 1.73 times more than you increased r.

Then, upon trying the equation again, by increasing both variables by 15%, it still came out completely different... then, I tried increasing both variables with an equal amount (0.1) and it still came out completely different... then, I got the bright idea of increasing the number of times the equation was executed (increased 100 to 1000)... the first equation completely stabilized (exact same three variables repeating every time), and the second equation still appeared to be random. Then, I tried increasing it again (1000 to 10000), and it had the same result.

The numbers "went funny"... I acquiesce :eek:

Since you're so good at this, maybe you can help me with my confusing calculations :D
 
M

Marlberg

Wanderer
Oh. ID is very falsifiable...disprove the existence of a higher being. QED. Done.
Click to expand...

Not up to me to Disprove in order for your substantiation of claim of ID to be falsifiable. Falsifiable simply means that it CAN be tested. Show me a reliable repeatable test that is logically consistent with itself for the Existence or Absence of Existence of God! I will grant all your claims that ID is a theory if you can do this.

Show me one instance of something specialized coming from something unspecialized without intelligent intervention and we'll talk
Click to expand...

Certainly The snowflake. Starts of as a mass of liquid water and small particulate matter. As the ambient temprature falls to 4 degrees C it exhibits order and specialization in a pattern or lattice structure.

Non-specialized substance giving rise to a specialized substance no interference from intelligence required
 
PappaSmurf

PappaSmurf

Knight
Sunshine said:
in the Immortal words of my daughter when she was little..
Click to expand...

Because it's unfair to use one bastardized form of english and not the others and I don't see anyone using French Creole in here........

Since all our cajun friends don't have thier dialect forced into the minds of young adults in Oakland we are boycotting all non-standard forms of the English language.
 
shrundowr

shrundowr

Lord
PappaSmurf said:
Because it's unfair to use one bastardized form of english and not the others and I don't see anyone using French Creole in here........

Since all our cajun friends don't have thier dialect forced into the minds of young adults in Oakland we are boycotting all non-standard forms of the English language.
Click to expand...
You lost me here. What about us Cajuns?
 
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