I spoke with god...

[David]

Whats the point of freewill if god has preconceived all happenings?

A most excellent question my young padawan.

I am sure others will have other thoughts on this, but here is how I see it.

I think God created the entirety of the Universe. I have no problem with the Big Bang, I just think God lit the fuse. God laid out all the rules of physics and time...He was able to do that because He exists outside of time. He knows everything that is was or will be, and always has.

Now, just because God knows what you are going to do in the morning does not mean that you did not make the choice to do it. You are able to choose your own destiny, but God knows what that destiny will be.

Make sense?

 

[David]

But in a way it is. He knows what you are going to do, so what is the point of living? Couldn't he just pick up a baby, see how it is going to live its life, then place it in heaven or hell depending on how it would have lived?

Because that is not how God set it up. Once we as humans reach the point that we are able to choose between following God or not, it is our choice that matters. God will not force us to love Him.

 

[Slayer706]

Yes it makes perfect sense, but my question is: Why bother?
If life is just a bunch of tests to decide where you go after death, and God already knows what your choices will be, why not just put you in heaven or hell to begin with?

And I am sorry, but the difference between "fate" and "you make choices, but they are already known before you make them" seems like a very very fine line to me.

EDIT - But he knows if we are going to choose him. So what is the point in making us go through all of this crap on Earth if he already knows exactly what is going to happen to us?

 

[bzk90]

Yes it makes perfect sense, but my question is: Why bother?
If life is just a bunch of tests to decide where you go after death, and God already knows what your choices will be, why not just put you in heaven or hell to begin with?

And I am sorry, but the difference between "fate" and "you make choices, but they are already known before you make them" seems like a very very fine line to me.

EDIT - But he knows if we are going to choose him. So what is the point in making us go through all of this crap on Earth if he already knows exactly what is going to happen to us?

Perhaps the corruption caused by the devil over-writes the plan set fourth by god. If that was the case then(than?) man has a limited but existent freewill...

 

[Slayer706]

But he is God, he knows everything. He knows if the devil will corrupt you or not.......

I agree that the freewill is there, but what is the point in letting us make the choices he doesn't want us to make? Why let us damn ourselves...?

 

[David]

There is the old question, could God make a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?

That gets into that whole "My ways are higher than your ways" thing... we simply are not capable of understanding God. However, yes I think He can. I think that what God decrees will happen. Even if He were to change his mind.

Jesus could have, literally with just a word, called down angels to take Him off the cross--ruining the Fathers plan for our salvation. I don't believe that God the Father could have stopped it because God the Son decreed that it was to happen.

Keep in mind that that is all hypothetical... The concept of The Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) exists for the benefit of our limited understanding. It is all different aspects of one God.

 

[Slayer706]

That gets into that whole "My ways are higher than your ways" thing... we simply are not capable of understanding God. However, yes I think He can. I think that what God decrees will happen. Even if He were to change his mind.

You do realize that the question I asked is impossible for a supreme being either way..... If he can make a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it, he cannot eat it and therefore he is not supreme. If he cannot make a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it, he is not supreme because he could not create something. That is why I asked how God could know his own limitless limitations (if that even makes sense, but I can't think of a better way to say it).

 

[David]

but what is the point in letting us make the choices he doesn't want us to make? Why let us damn ourselves...?

An excellent question--I don't know. I just know that love freely given is what God (and mankind for that matter) wants.

 

[kellsar]

man once said:
Oh Mighty God!!! STRIKE ME DOWN!!!

then he sits down and begins to read a book and lives a long and prosperous life...

WTF?

 

[Slayer706]

I would rather not have freewill and live in heaven forever than have freewill and have a chance to burn in hell forever..... What reason is there to choose differently?

 

[kellsar]

oh yea...

devil, or lucifer... and if you say god lives outside of time...

does this make it... a 4th dimension thing (i consider the here and now 3rd... dimension, time, and the z-axis...)

 

[WarAngel]

You do realize that the question I asked is impossible for a supreme being either way..... If he can make a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it, he cannot eat it and therefore he is not supreme. If he cannot make a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it, he is not supreme because he could not create something. That is why I asked how God could know his own limitless limitations (if that even makes sense, but I can't think of a better way to say it).

Using semantics to prove points is a terrible way to argue.

 

[David]

You do realize that the question I asked is impossible for a supreme being either way..... If he can make a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it, he cannot eat it and therefore he is not supreme. If he cannot make a burrito so hot that he cannot eat it, he is not supreme because he could not create something. That is why I asked how God could know his own limitless limitations (if that even makes sense, but I can't think of a better way to say it).

Again with "My ways are higher than your ways." This is me as a human trying to explain my limited understang of a God that surpasses understanding... But the way I see it is that God is limited only by His own decrees and actions. If He declares that a burito is too hot for Him to eat, then it simply is. Is that a limitation?

Regardless, I think God would laugh at any attempt by us to trap Him in a logic puzzle...

 

[TMSTKSBK]

God, as a being, is not physically present in what we perceive as reality.

 

[Slayer706]

But the point still stands. A supreme being cannot really be supreme...... If he is supreme, he has infinite power. If he has infinite power, how does he know how powerful he is? How can he know everything about himself if he himself is infinite?

EDIT:

If He declares that a burito is too hot for Him to eat, then it simply is. Is that a limitation?

He cannot eat the burrito. How can he be supreme and not have the ability to do something at the same time?

 

[WarAngel]

God does not create nor destroy.

The conondrum of the burrito is not a way to disprove anything. People have been coming up with "what if" situations for ages to try and disprove things, and it never works. If you're forced to use "what if" statements to disprove something, you obviously have a lack of any solid evidence.

 

[David]

I would rather not have freewill and live in heaven forever than have freewill and have a chance to burn in hell forever..... What reason is there to choose differently?

Well I would have to agree, better to ask the many on these forums that have said outright they have firmly made the other choice.

 

[Slayer706]

God does not create nor destroy.

He created man. Doesn't it say that in the bible?

Well I would have to agree, better to ask the many on these forums that have said outright they have firmly made the other choice.

If heaven is the desired 'end game' of life, why would you make the other choice? A guarenteed life in heaven, or a chance to go to hell.... There aren't even any benefits to having freewill anyway.

 

[WarAngel]

He created man. Doesn't it say that in the bible?

He created man. Since then, he has not created nor destroyed. God does not make burritos. Besides, the conondrum of the burrito is not a way to disprove anything. People have been coming up with "what if" situations for ages to try and disprove things, and it never works. If you're forced to use "what if" statements to disprove something, you obviously have a lack of any solid evidence.

 

[David]

He cannot eat the burrito. How can he be supreme and not have the ability to do something at the same time?

He is only limited by His own doing. Maybe He never chose to limit Himself...then He is not limited at all.