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War for oil? or revenge?

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Clarke76

Wanderer
As for the Death Penalty:

1) Our laws say that life is above all and that if you kill and its premeditated then you deserver to die. Yet the U.S governments premeditates murder everyday by punishing people with death? Dosnt make sense does it.

As for war with Iraq:

1) I have personal opinion we do need to go into Iraq and take out Saddam. I dont think its for oil, but it could be. Either way all his people live in fear while he is dictator.

2) For those countries that dont support US. IE: France and Geramny. We should GET ALL MONEY given to them for rebuilding after WWII. Maybe they forgot who helped Europe the most in time of need....and continue to Aid other contries every year.

Just my views...dont rip me apart to bad :) hehe
 

ratfink

Sorceror
Clarke76 said:
2) For those countries that dont support US. IE: France and Geramny. We should GET ALL MONEY given to them for rebuilding after WWII. Maybe they forgot who helped Europe the most in time of need....and continue to Aid other contries every year.

With all due respect, one should not be held a gunpoint to go with an action that they feel is unjust. They have every right to do everything they can for a cause they belive in just as much as we do. It is one thing to support a country it is another thing entirely to go along with absoltuely everything they come out with.

You do not hear France expecting money back from it's support of the American Revolution, the logic that you are using can lead you into a trap.

If one nation has the power to decide the fate of all nations unilateraly there is something inherently wrong with the system.

I do support a war on Iraq, but I do not expect everyone to support it.
 
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php-junkie

Guest
rlitt3 said:
Yet, I am not sure if we should go to war unless US has support of the UN.
pfft, the US is the UN. The US dictates every thing they do. I'm sure the UN wouldn't be in Iraq right now if our government didn't want them there, but since your government wants them there; enough said. Personally I think all this chaos is going to be the start of world war III.
 
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php-junkie

Guest
IxildorRS said:
Us always had the technology and the military background to take out just sadam with assassins or missiles!
What's the point to go in open war if the only problem is one person sadam?
If we kill just Saddam I'm sure one of his generals would take over and the threat would still exist. The hole point of going to war with them is to destroy the military dictatorship of their country. Also, as seen in previous wars with the US I'm sure they will stick around and dump billions into rebuilding their country after they destroy it.
 
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php-junkie

Guest
knox said:
"He has chem weapons for a reason.. to use them."

The USA has also chemical weapons, and a lot of weapons being far worse (atomics). For a reason? Yes, I do know of the MAD principle, but there is still something wrong. It's an exclusive club, and anybody who wants to join the club is hindered or bombed freely, because he is not in the club yet.

Yes in GULF1 Saddam killed his own population. Well doesn't the USA still do that itself? Clean in front of your own door and stop death penality before acusing anybody else of not beein human. (A funny side know the USA would not qualify to join the EU (beside not beeing European) (For death penality, civil weapon laws, etc.) Even turkey is already closer and acting more human)

Well and yes Saddam will vanish from himself, like a lot of dictators have done before. (zB Genreal Franko) or what will happen with Kuba? With the same reason you can say you have to invade Kuba because Fidel Castro won't vanish form himself, he will. Learn history no dictatorship holds forever. Even Hitler would have fallen eitherway if the USA would have done nothing. The German Empire was eating up from inside long before 1945. But maybe history is teaches here in Germany different than in the USA. But the economy was breaking up from inside long before, and Hitler made a lot of money with smart short-termed economy effects, which are known to damadge far sighted.

And all people don't ever believe believe again the bullshit that the USA starts a war out of humanity reasons, it has simply never been true. In the history after 1945 they have so often not cared about humanity, or supported unhuman organisations and leader, just as they've seen fit. I've seen a "dark" list longer than several pages.
Lets create a scenario here. A guy with a gun robs a store and shoots the clerk. A call goes out and the cops show up. The guy shoots at the cops. The cops shoot back and kill the guy.

Now lets create another scenario. A guy with a gun robs a store and shoots the clerk. he gets away. later on he gets caught for the crime. Has his trial and gets the death penalty.

Do you see any difference in these scenarios. I don't, and if I was to call it anything at all I would call it self defense, otherwise known as the death penalty. No differant than us going to war with Saddam
 
L

Lost User

Guest
2) For those countries that dont support US. IE: France and Geramny. We should GET ALL MONEY given to them for rebuilding after WWII. Maybe they forgot who helped Europe the most in time of need....and continue to Aid other contries every year.

Well here I have to disappoint you. The money for rebuilding central europe for WWII was
* not directly from the us only. It was from the UN precessor: League of Nations
* Second the money was not donated, it was credit only. Well yes a credit with very good conditions, but we had to pay it back all. Additionally Germany had to pay quite high repairment payments to the winners also the US. Germany would had never a free economy if it would have not been by the enthusiasm and the so called "german economy wonder" in the fifties to get out of the mess. I don't feel that after this conditions gemany or france has any oblligatoin left, after all for example 1937-38 hitler was also funded from the us. Was a famous quote from an US economist "We already have once made the error to not look closely who out "friends" are".


Well for the man steals in a shop scenario. Even a policeman may only shoot if he or others life are in actual direct danger, he may not shoot even a murderer if he is just flying. Even if he shoots he must try to not kill him, (has to aim at the lower body part.). A police to kill in self defence is absolutly not the same as death penality. After all the police unifies not the judification or legislation in them, and thats good that way.
 
L

Lost User

Guest
pfft, the US is the UN. The US dictates every thing they do. I'm sure the UN wouldn't be in Iraq right now if our government didn't want them there, but since your government wants them there; enough said. Personally I think all this chaos is going to be the start of world war III.

Absolutly not the US alone wants NOW the UN out of IRAQ, because only then they can start bombing. Germany and France are currently interested and acting the get UN blue helmets into IRAQ. Why? To hinder the US to bomb the IRAQ into stone age. When the blue helmets are in, they can't do anything. The US currently tries to hinder Germany and France to position UN soldiers into the IRAQ.
 
L

Lost User

Guest
I Believe that death penaldy must occur in something more than obvius situations!

Like the 170 from the 750 executed people that have been released from deathrow because they turned out to be innocent.

Or "more than obvious" like these people that have been exectued either way by the US?

Executed Despite Doubts About Guilt

There is no way to tell how many of the over 750 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some of those with strong claims include:

Roger Keith Coleman Virginia Conviction 1982 Executed 1992
Coleman was convicted of raping and murdering his sister-in-law in 1981, but both his trial and appeal were plagued by errors made by his attorneys. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to consider the merits of his petition because his state appeal had been filed one day late. Considerable evidence was developed after the trial to refute the state's evidence, and that evidence might well have produced a different result at a re-trial. Governor Wilder considered a commutation for Coleman, but allowed him to be executed when Coleman failed a lie detector test on the day of his execution.

Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction 1986 Executed 1997
New DNA blood evidence has thrown considerable doubt on the murder and rape conviction of O'Dell. In reviewing his case in 1991, three Supreme Court Justices, said they had doubts about O'Dell's guilt and whether he should have been allowed to represent himself. Without the blood evidence, there is little linking O'Dell to the crime. In September, 1996, the 4th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals reinstated his death sentence and upheld his conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review O'Dell's claims of innocence and held that its decision regarding juries being told about the alternative sentence of life-without-parole was not retroactive to his case. O'Dell asked the state to conduct DNA tests on other pieces of evidence to demonstrate his innocence but was refused. He was executed on July 23rd.

David Spence Texas Conviction 1984 Executed 1997
Spence was charged with murdering three teenagers in 1982. He was allegedly hired by a convenience store owner to kill another girl, and killed these victims by mistake. The convenience store owner, Muneer Deeb, was originally convicted and sentenced to death, but then was acquitted at a re-trial. The police lieutenant who supervised the investigation of Spence, Marvin Horton, later concluded: "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." Ramon Salinas, the homicide detective who actually conducted the investigation, said: "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." No physical evidence connected Spence to the crime. The case against Spence was pursued by a zealous narcotics cop who relied on testimony of prison inmates who were granted favors in return for testimony.

Leo Jones Florida Convicted 1981 Executed 1998
Jones was convicted of murdering a police officer in Jacksonville, Florida. Jones signed a confession after several hours of police interrogation, but he later claimed the confession was coerced. In the mid-1980s, the policeman who arrested Jones and the detective who took his confession were forced out of uniform for ethical violations. The policeman was later identified by a fellow officer as an "enforcer" who had used torture. Many witnesses came forward pointing to another suspect in the case.

Gary Graham Texas Convicted 1981 Executed 2000
On June 23, 2000, Gary Graham was executed in Texas, despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available.
 
L

Lost User

Guest
Okay A more detailed shopkeeper-robber-saddam analogy:

First back in the 1980ies of all you live in a street (world), where at the end of the street lives a long timed foe of you (IRAN). You know the neighbour of this guy (IRAQ) is also a foe of him, you want to get rid of the iran guy, so you give plenty of weapons to the iraq guy in the hope that he kills him.
They do some fights with each other, but neither side kills neither.
Also an important fact is that the iraq guy has a rich family, and his living room is full of gold (oil)
Then one day the Iraq guy uses your weapons to invade the flat (also of gold= of a friend of you (kuwait). Okay you don't like that and go and take that flat back. Additionally you also wounded the iraq guy and give him a lot of conditions to save his life (give back all the wapons you gave him). He accepts and you let him go.
In the meanwhile another arab in the street a real criminal (bin laden) makes some serious crimes, mostly with guys living in the building of your kuwait friend, who don't like you beeing there and securing his gold (oil) every weekday, so you can take it if you desire.
10 years later you are bored, and money is running out. Additionally you have a brand new riffle (i.e. microwave weaopn) you are so eager to try out. So you walk down the street and demand the life of the iraq guy, look that there isn't any different situation like before 10 years when you decided to let him go, since you were to lazy to hunt after him (would have lost ~ 20k-50.000 soldiers). You tell your familiy (us population) that you do that to pay back the crimes of the bin laden guy. after all both are arabs, and arabs are evil (new form of facism) Also a fact is taht gold in his living room is yours to take after the iraq is dead, thats fact, but you deny that this is any motivation of yours, nor to try out your loved new riffle.
Your long termed goals are to secure the whole building with gold living rooms, so your family can live of it for 2 or 3 generations and be the richest familiy of the street (richest state of the world).
 

IxildorRS

Wanderer
Tell you the truth i also believe that we have come to the edge wwiii , will start... europe-america VS the rest world)it looks so pathetic:p
 

psz

Administrator
Not because your oppinion of Bush or war is right or wrong...

Just don't ever bump 8 month old posts again. ESPECIALLY ones that lead to flamewars. I don't care WHAT forum it's in.
 
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