Wyatt and Phantom

[Guadah]

Wyatt and Phantom

Catchy Title?

I think so, but it speaks volumns for those of you who browse the forums on a daily basis. I often go to work and in my spare time, I will browse the forums, in the past just reading posts, and enjoying the idea, scripts and sometimes flame battles I see.

Today a member was banned for modifying the Core of RunUO. This has been posted as a banable offense, and if you to follow the rules, it deserves the bannishment. I (as an individual) do not agree on this bannishment. This is not a thread to argue with the Administrators of the Server. I honestly believe that they have done an amazing job with RunUO, and it offers the community more then can be expected, espically being for free.

Instead, I think this bannishment was provoked by the member known as Phantom. I have seen this person harrass, belittle and with sarcastic posts humiliate other posters. I understand that Phantom is a talented Scripter, he has been around RunUO since it first started out, and im sure in the past he has helped the community. Unfortunally in the last few weeks, I have almost reported ever single one of his posts becaue of either his comments, or the manner in which they were posted.

Phantom has posted that certian things were not possible within the scripts of RunUO, stated to people that it could not be done, and when somebody went to the effort of accomplishing that task, he reports them for their effort.

Wyatt did nothing to harm the RunUO Core. He has done nothing but help the Community of RunUO since I have seen him start posting. If you take a look at any of his posts in the past, they were for massive scripts, that no others have attempted to write.

So the topic of my conversation is why do we allow a member to push others around, belittle, humiliate and speak down to, stay around these Forums... Then take a member who has never spoken an ill word, but has always been there for honest support, and bannish him.

I support Wyatt, even though he has modified the Core. I do not believe he did this in a harmful manner, but to assist others in the update of Ultima Online.

~ Guadah
*Waits for Flames*

 

[x-ray]

True. In addition:
http://www.runuo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46600

 

[silverwolfe]

Wyatt will be missed....... I do not agree with phantoms method of badgering.... but at the shame time I should hope that the developers realize that while yes it was against terms of service, anyone who reverse engineers software is guilty of nothing less..... It is my belief that the rule was intended to prevent redistribution of the core..... I am aware that that is not how it is worded but as a programer I know that many things are reverse engineered in the real world. This is the nature of the beast.... Having said that, While I will miss Wyatt, my loyalty remains with Ryan, Zippy, & Krrios. Keep fighting the good fight guys.

 

[psz]

He broke the law. US Copyright law.

Thus he was banned.

I know of no law Phantom has broken (seeing as being an utter asshole isn't breaking the law).

 

[silverwolfe]

UMMM I can conceed that, but if that is so is it not true that anyone who uses a packet sniffer on OSI to get their exact gump or hues or methods not also guilty of similar crimes? Just a thought, and yes I know I am out on a limb and having said this will let it go.

"Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone."

 

[ASayre]

He was not only Bragging about it, but he was also RELEASING RunUO Core code from his decompilation.

 

[psz]

How is viewing a packet illegal? The packets come to your computer. All a packet logger does is sort them. What you DO with them is another story.

OTOH, MODIFYING SOMEONE ELSE'S CODE is another story. Especially when you *AGREE* to not do that, explicitly by clicking I Agree, updon download.

 

[silverwolfe]

I see your point, the viewing of the packest would not be Illegal, You are correct it is what you DO with that information.

 

[silverwolfe]

He was not only Bragging about it, but he was also RELEASING RunUO Core code from his decompilation.

This part I did not know....

 

[ASayre]

This part I did not know....

Now yas do. THAT is the primary reason he was banned. He was only banned now because it came to our attention now.

 

[x-ray]

was against terms of service, anyone who reverse engineers software is guilty of nothing less.....

About runuo itself...
Is runuo use own network protocol, or sniffed protocol of the official server ?
Yes, sure the second one. Now lets think - can this be counting as 'reverse engineering' ?
Is this a violation of law to use this protocol in the own server ?

 

[x-ray]

ps As i already said in the deleted thread (nice way to do business, yea - just delete and forget) Wyatt ALONE make almost entire se support in one week. Dont you think the better way to invite him into the dev team ?

 

[psz]

The devs already have support. It took MUCH less than a week.

(See Demise for example)

As for the packets. Again, all the packet logger does is sort packets. If RunUO wanted to take A7 and make it do something TOTALLY differant than OSI, they could.

(For the record, RunUO was disigned to test KUOC, not to emulate OSI)

As for reverse engineering: At no point does, has, or will RunUO ever use OSI's code. It's a different language. At no point did the server or client .exe's get decompiled. At no point were any of OSI's software hacked into and modified.

A simple process of "Hmm, everytime the client recieves packet A, a dog barks" was all that was needed to start work on a client. After that, it's just a matter of "Everytime the client sends packet B, my character moves" to get the server to handle moving.

What do you know? You now have a new client and server *gasp*


As for the deleted thread A: it was in the wrong forum, B: it was essentially THIS thread again :-P No need for a double post on it

 

[Guadah]

I know of no law Phantom has broken (seeing as being an utter asshole isn't breaking the law).

Its your website. Why keep a "asshole" who brings down the Community?

He does nothing for your dev team, and even talks about that on his website. Why keep him around.

Wyatt will be missed, but I understand your view.

 

[x-ray]

My poor english dont allow me say all my thinks clearly, anyway, lets forget about server and sniffing, noone never accept what his work is illegal. Server emulators is a long story - thanks to OSI they are really tolerant to all of us. For example I know you know how Blizzard care with WoW server emulators.
About the dev team... Speaking like the user of runuo, not scripter. I dont see new release of runuo long time ago. You can say everything is ok but this looks like some kind of crisis isnt it ? I am (as a user) want all support quickest is possible, isnt it ? Sure i wait for your release, sure i will loyal to you (we discuss this with Wyatt itself you know), but it someone do something and SHARE THE KNOWLEDGE and WORK... You know.

ps I am with you from the uox time... Just look to this from the point of simple users, not the admins. Hope we can understand each over. Or as always you can say - "we dont care, he broke the rules, and you are flooder"

 

[psz]

Would you prefer half-written, buggy RunUO releases that will require more releases to fix bugs, or ONE release that has almost everything, and works?

As it stands, RunUO RC1 is currently on 4 shards (to my knowledge). Those shards are generally testing different aspects of RunUO. Example: Demise tests RunUO, more or less default, with AOS on.

Hybrid tests with AOS off, and with custom settings.

Rebirth tests with LOTS of custom settings (Pre-UOR).

This way things get tested more thoroughly so that YOU (user of RunUO) get a finished WORKING product, instead of what POL, Sphere, and UOX have put on over the years. Releases that require the user to go through buggy periods that can last months at a time.

This isn't going to happen with RunUO.

Most of the SE things that can be done with RC0 are already released on Script Submissions. If all you're worried about is SE, use those, and wait for the rest.

 

[Phantom]

There will be a new release soon.

They want to get the new network code completed before its released.

You do want a better emulator, yes?

Wyatt ALONE make almost entire se support in one week. Dont you think the better way to invite him into the dev team ?

Wyatt only wrote special abilities. They were not even correct, and chances they didn't even work. Considering nobody can prove they actually worked, I am going to assume the worst and say they didn't Wyatt has not posted any other script, I checked. There are still 15 mobiles and their special abilities, the new skills ( which he could add if he worked on it. The new special abilities still possible without editing the core. Additional tiles support, the new weapons.

I brought the errors to Wyatt's attention and asked him why he would post code that had compile errors. He was very lets say, unwilling to accept he did anything wrong. He even in a sense gave us a choice of having him post a "edited" core of RunUO. This is why, after this happen, I had no ability to give him my respect.

I tried to handle it the best way I could. I asked nicely for him to fix the problems. He was unwilling to do this, because he felt there was no problem. I at that point looked into his history, and the 8th post in his recent posts were in regards to adding the new map.

He had posted a core class, which is against the rules Its also not required to add the additional maps. I really hope people can see the difference between my tough help, and somebody like Wyatt. If you can't you need to look at yourself and figure out whats wrong with yourself.

Why have I not been banned? Well I have been, because I crossed a line and I will be the first to admit to that. I also will be the first to admit to that I am starting to cross that line again. Even though I really dislike the author of this thread, I hope he will continue to bring posts that cross the line to my attention and I will fix them.

I make a joke, that sometimes in the irc chatroom, I need people to slape me like a christian school girl on the ass. I sometimes get on a tangent like Wyatt's buggy code, and I need somebody to tell me to stop. But there are ways to tell me to stop that doesn't enolve insulting me. Most likely I will move to a new tangent which is no help to me.

I am most likely going to regret posting this. Mainly because people will never forget what I have said.

 

[Phantom]

Its your website. Why keep a "asshole" who brings down the Community?

He does nothing for your dev team, and even talks about that on his website. Why keep him around.

Wyatt will be missed, but I understand your view.

So I should be banned because I am not on the Development team and I bitch about people thinking I am?

What does my website have to do with RunUO? I changed the name of my "project" website for that reason. So I could have a website I could use for any purpose I wanted.

 

[x-ray]

psz, you are really good moderator, really, i understand your point of view but this time speaking "buggy" you are exaggerate (hope i write this word correctly).

You cant judge the Wyatt code or improvement until you see them. Also, Wyatt already released few scripts and additions to runuo and he have an expirience. The scecond, dont you think to prevent such bugs its better to runuo open source ? Remember that poll ?
Honestly speaking i dont want runuo became totaly open source - i prefer bsd style licensing. I just want to ask - why are you so worried about this ?

About the runuo releases - i just want to say in the past the new releases was more often. You can said - "runuo became more complicated", but the dev team also have new talanted members.

About se scripts on the forum. You are joking i think. Se is not the only items and vendors. The main part is new classes, skills, mobs. As i said before - let me think like a user - if someone suggest me runuo without the bugs and with se support i will agree and you know why... The legality of this we discussed before.

ps as i said before - i understand you, but i think Waytt did't deserve the ban from the point of view of the user.
pps I dont think new talanted coder like Wyatt in dev team will be "the five leg to the dog" like we said in our country...
ppps again, we are on the same side. You are now thinking like Blizzard think on the Wow server emulators

 

[Maynza]

Bravo Phantom.

I honestly take phantom's side on this.

He is an extremely good resource but he requires you know something in the first place. I don't hold anything against phantom. I may have in the past but recently talking with him about a script I was building I realized that you do learn alot more when you are forced upon the answer yourself. I can tell you right now that i'll probably never forget that items names are stored in ItemData not Name. So I think that guda or w/e your name is should stop talking. Especially when you said Phantom contributes nothing to the runuo devs. He was co designer of the Factions soon to be released so put a sock in it.