Another dark day...

[Solereaper]

But this is totally idiotic:

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Well Lucid I got most of my information from history books and various other media. When Aid is given it is often given with terms such as you must purchase American or European produce. At the end of the day Western Goverments know fair well that Aid with terms, Trade Embargos, Starvation, and lack of Medication is a good way to make people turn to our so called Democratic ways. Befor you preach about all the money America is giving to people look at what it spends on it's own bomb making. When you bomb people you oppresse them simple fact.

As for the WMD issue. I agree Sadam did make the statment first, but now we have invaded Iraq I think the links between various terror groups will only grow stronger. I belive we will have to suffer more bombings until our respective Goverments can find a political and humanitarian solution.

Remember one mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

The emargo issue may be correct, but the simple fact is Africa's government will oppress their own people. Like you said starvation and lack of communication is a real effective way to enforce power. And that is exactly what the existing government is doing to their own people. And yet again someone has to take what is supposed to be a kind act of America and turn it into what it is not. I am for what most of you want but for different reasons. I want to pull out of the middle east and have our troops return home cause I think we need some larger catastrofic event to give us enough courage to finish this war. England hasn't seen the end of suicide bombings cause they will not throw out the 10-15k of extreme muslims living off of their welfare. I feel that terror has settled in our souls and has caused us to accept them out of fear. Freedom fighters huh? lol

Idiotic you say. Well if you want to get personal about my opinions thats fine Lucid. Consider this as you wallow in your American propaganda. I served in the US.ARMY back in the 80's, and seemed to spend a lot of time training Iraqi, and other Arabic Army Officers. Who do you think created men like Sadam, and Bin Laden? The American Goverment thats who.

As for the 10-15k of extreem Muslims living in the UK. Where you get that informaton from? As far as I can tell it is A minority that is extreem. Most actualy contribute to the UK Economy, and Society in a posative way.

Lucid I was just wondering how long you spent in the Military? Considering you seem to feel comfortable with character assination, and racial slurs.

 

[TMSTKSBK]

Agreed, we made Sadaam the dictator he was. Now we're cleaning up the mess we made in the first place, and should have cleaned up over a decade ago.

 

[Solereaper]

Agreed, we made Sadaam the dictator he was. Now we're cleaning up the mess we made in the first place, and should have cleaned up over a decade ago

Don't forget Bin Laden he was supported by the CIA.

 

[Ankhesentapemkah]

Well first of all my sincere sympathies for those involved.

Unfortunately it's too easily forgotton what the role of the British was in the conquest and oppression of the middle east. Thousands brutally murdered, even mutilated and raped for fun. Seen a documentary about Yemen, and it was shocking how they treated those people. Soldiers admitting they had been shooting kids for fun, and how they dragged away random people and tortured them, hoping to find some resistance people amongst them. How their squad commander became a great hero, but how no-one is told of the warcrimes commited there.

I'm not going to attempt to justify these attacks, but we should know the reason behind them. And we should know that what happened in London is absolutely nothing compared to what we did to them in the past, and what still happens every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Ohms_Law]

Well first of all my sincere sympathies for those involved.

Unfortunately it's too easily forgotton what the role of the British was in the conquest and oppression of the middle east. Thousands brutally murdered, even mutilated and raped for fun. Seen a documentary about Yemen, and it was shocking how they treated those people. Soldiers admitting they had been shooting kids for fun, and how they dragged away random people and tortured them, hoping to find some resistance people amongst them. How their squad commander became a great hero, but how no-one is told of the warcrimes commited there.

I'm not going to attempt to justify these attacks, but we should know the reason behind them. And we should know that what happened in London is absolutely nothing compared to what we did to them in the past, and what still happens every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

different time, different world, different values, different needs. you can only go so far in comparing History with the modern world. besides, pick any modern European nation, and I'll tell you two or three examples of what the modern world would consider atrocity, genocide, imperial oppression/political oppression, religious repression/persecution, etc, etc, etc... ad nausium
History is just that, history.
something to learn from, for sure, but this type of comparison is not fair to anyone (in the present or the past.)

 

[Solereaper]

different time, different world, different values, different needs. you can only go so far in comparing History with the modern world. besides, pick any modern European nation, and I'll tell you two or three examples of what the modern world would consider atrocity, genocide, imperial oppression/political oppression, religious repression/persecution, etc, etc, etc... ad nausium
History is just that, history.
something to learn from, for sure, but this type of comparison is not fair to anyone (in the present or the past.)

Unfortunately history tends to repeat it self. What has happend is not really about religon but society at large. When you marginalise any group, you create more disillusioned people. I can only see more racial, and religous intolerance because of the actions of both western goverments, and extremists.

Is a bomb in a subway any different to one delivered from a plane? By design both kill randomly, and often innocent people.

 

[TMSTKSBK]

Bomb from a plane generally has more "reason" behind it. There isn't much "reason" for the terrorists to attack the US, UK, or any other place, beyond their rabid hate for all that the West represents -- society, freedom, peace.

 

[Ohms_Law]

Unfortunately history tends to repeat it self. What has happend is not really about religon but society at large. When you marginalise any group, you create more disillusioned people. I can only see more racial, and religous intolerance because of the actions of both western goverments, and extremists.

Is a bomb in a subway any different to one delivered from a plane? By design both kill randomly, and often innocent people.

I couldn't agree more with your reasoning, SoulReaper. the implied conclusions (that we shouldn't be involved) I happen to beleave are nieve, however. The United States and its citizens have always had a tendency to be isolationist, so I'm not surprised to hear this viewpoint esposed. however, its no more correct in my mind then it was in the 1900's prior to world war I, or the 1920's prior to world war II.
does that mean I think we should have troops in every country in the world, being 'activists'? no, not at all. there's a tightrope line to be walked, and in my opinion we're currently on that line. there was alot of post 9/11 speach which would indicate otherwise, which I feel was a mistake. however, it was also hardly avoidable with everyone seeing both towers collapse, and watching the carnage in the aftermath for weeks, live and in color, for weeks afterwords. since about 6-9 months after 9/11 however, that retoric has calmed significantly enough for us to start acting as 'Americans' again... with a couple significant and unfortunately highly visible exceptions. Personally, I'm more than satified with our current course regarding forign policy.
now, if you want to talk about "social" policies, and see me an TM actually argue some, that's a different topic...

 

[Arajh]

beyond their rabid hate for all that the West represents -- society, freedom, peace.

Thoses are what you think West represent, but is it really what people think when they see a "westerner" ? highly doubt so.

I Live up north so I'm part of that West somehow, but you know what, if I were to think of another "westerner", free & peaceful would never cross my mind.

 

[Phantom]

I think everyone who doesn't agree with the following should be shot:

terrorists are bad, they everyone should stop them and do what we need to do to stop them.

Anyone who doesn't agree with that, should be shot, because they if support terrorists. Sadaam was a dictator and a terrorist, he used fear to control his people, thus he was removed from power.

Nobody can say Sadaam was not evil, if you don't think he was evil, you support terrorists.

 

[Ohms_Law]

Absolutely. the only really effective arguments re: Saddam specifically, that i've heard so far, revolve around the WMD reasoning for the time we finally said 'enough'.
yes, it was a marketing tactic... so what?
what's telling to me is, the same people who are most vocal about using WMD as a reson to enter Iraq are the same ones being investigated in the Oil for Food scandal. obvious ulterier motives, for the most part (like, money perhaps?)

 

[TMSTKSBK]

^heheheheheh


^^Agreed, definitely.


^^^Maybe I should have said "in a perfect world".

 

[Muppet]

Absolutely. the only really effective arguments re: Saddam specifically, that i've heard so far, revolve around the WMD reasoning for the time we finally said 'enough'.
yes, it was a marketing tactic... so what?
what's telling to me is, the same people who are most vocal about using WMD as a reson to enter Iraq are the same ones being investigated in the Oil for Food scandal. obvious ulterier motives, for the most part (like, money perhaps?)

Ummm... Ohms Law the people who are being investigated about oil for food are France and some people in the UN, like Kofi Annan the UN Secratary General, these are people who didnt want to go into Iraq at all. Not the people like the Bush Administration and Priminister Toni Blair who thought at the time of the invasion that Iraq had WMD's.

Im glad that you are completely clear on world politics.

 

[TMSTKSBK]

Ohms means the ones that were whining about using the WMDs as an excuse...

i.e......France & the UN...

 

[Alis]

Phantom god where are you from ? Plz dont write things that you dont know will you guys dont write things the you see on t.v or on the newspapers plz..It's only a propaganda Saddam hüseyin was not a terorist this number 1 2 Did USA atacked saddam hüseyin because he was creating biochemical weapons no ... Eventhough there is no biochemical weopens found and that had been released all over the world .. Evryone knows why actually america atacked Saddam.

3 the two towers ladin evryone says ladin is this ladin is that yeah he is a terorist i dont want him to live but where do you know ladin did this atack god gee cant we think plz.. cant the cia had done a operation to atack ladin then with this operation they would atack the Country iraq ?

A simple proof the Pentagon what im going to tell you that maybe some of you know maybe not but you remmeber that a plane falled a big type plane full with fuel and passengers on the pentagon think now.

1-The worlds most defandable place pentagon how come got hit.
2-It's proved that a plane with that fuel silo if had falled then it would create a massive damage on the pentagon.
3-The size of the plane that is said to be fallen is way tooo greater then the size of the spot that is hit on pentagon...

Maybe some of you know or not i am from Turkey maybe some of you know the bomb that exploded last year on HSBC and the english embassy.. i was a victim of HSBC i saw what teroroisim is so plz dont talk about terorisim if you didint see it with you own eyes will you..

Guys don't mis understand that i like Saddam yeah he had aa bad rejim but it's not the reason why the u.s army atacked İraq.

İ was in Kuwait during the war 1991 i saw the troops i saw the fear on the kuwaties i saw missles bombing my neighbors so dont tell me what terorisim is or not..

 

[bzk90]

Phantom god where are you from ? Plz dont write things that you dont know will you guys dont write things the you see on t.v or on the newspapers plz..It's only a propaganda Saddam hüseyin was not a terorist this number 1 2 Did USA atacked saddam hüseyin because he was creating biochemical weapons no ... Eventhough there is no biochemical weopens found and that had been released all over the world .. Evryone knows why actually america atacked Saddam.

3 the two towers ladin evryone says ladin is this ladin is that yeah he is a terorist i dont want him to live but where do you know ladin did this atack god gee cant we think plz.. cant the cia had done a operation to atack ladin then with this operation they would atack the Country iraq ?

A simple proof the Pentagon what im going to tell you that maybe some of you know maybe not but you remmeber that a plane falled a big type plane full with fuel and passengers on the pentagon think now.

1-The worlds most defandable place pentagon how come got hit.
2-It's proved that a plane with that fuel silo if had falled then it would create a massive damage on the pentagon.
3-The size of the plane that is said to be fallen is way tooo greater then the size of the spot that is hit on pentagon...

Maybe some of you know or not i am from Turkey maybe some of you know the bomb that exploded last year on HSBC and the english embassy.. i was a victim of HSBC i saw what teroroisim is so plz dont talk about terorisim if you didint see it with you own eyes will you..

Guys don't mis understand that i like Saddam yeah he had aa bad rejim but it's not the reason why the u.s army atacked İraq.

İ was in Kuwait during the war 1991 i saw the troops i saw the fear on the kuwaties i saw missles bombing my neighbors so dont tell me what terorisim is or not..

reading your post just made me loose another 2% of my brain

 

[Alis]

=) np

 

[TMSTKSBK]

-Phantom's from Florida...

I shall not endeavor to tell you what terrorism is.

The Pentagon is not very defendable, actually. It's in the middle of a nation that has no enemies anywhere near it. We were not expecting an aircraft to come swooping out of the sky and blowing a hole in the side of the building. There are no anti-aircraft batteries, because they can't stop an ICBM, and any plane coming against the Pentagon would be knocked down long before that--we thought. The Air Force doesn't have Combat Air Patrols in the sky all the time -- there is no combat! You must remember. Before 9-11, the US military was largely focused on the USSR. With no "Iron Curtain", there was no focused enemy, so the military was confused as to which direction to head in. Much of our military was lost due to mismanagement under Clinton (yes that was an opinion). If it wasn't lost, it was sidelined and emasculated.

We are not the nation we once were. We are not as powerful as we once were. I hear the Goths knocking at our door. How long until the sack of Washington?

 

[Kwwres10]

Starbucks, anyone?

Censorship has nothing to do with it. Having a grasp of the English language to the point of being able to discuss your topic without resorting to crude language is the point. What you think about language being crude or not is also irrelevant. As the forum rules state, we have people of all ages on here, and the boards should be readable by all of them. Y'don't like it? Tough.

Please control yourself enough to attempt to have an intelligent discussion.

As for your second post -- debate participants must have an open mind, or you're just talking at each other. Where's the point in that? That is what I mean by having a neutral standpoint -- having an open mind to the points your opponent is attempting to make. So far, you have not made any.

*sigh* Once again, you think you know me. Once again. My language is not crude. What defines it as crude, who defines it as crude? Over 100 years ago you could run around hollering "I am so gay!" then get a pat on the back, throw a party and get wasted on crummy wine. The english language is ever changing. Obviously you only read half my post, because I said, using these "Curse words" in moderation is acceptable. Using them properly is the key. Yet you "insult my intelligence", and repeat what I just said. Re-read my ENTIRE post. Not just the parts that suit you. I am just questioning the common belief, since everyone else is too afraid to. Because unintelligent people curse, does not make it unintelligent. Unintellegent people yell really loud when they are mad, and so do intelligent people, but intelligent people do it less. Why should these "Crude words" be hidden from children? Thier peers will teach it to them in highschool anyways. YOU learned about it. Why delay the time that they know? Why not tell them about sex at a young age? Worried parents say "If they know about sex, then they will want to have sex!" Exact opposite. If they KNOW about sex then they will be less curious, and less inclined to experiment.

As for your second statement, I agree, but once again, you're yelling at me, and we are on the same side. People are flip-flopping when each side spurts out lies. Open minds are great. I have an open mind. Did you read my one page speech on having an open mind to greater good of humanity above? NO? Didn't think so. Once again, you did not read the whole thing. I have an open mind. But I am not convinced to converge to your cause. Just because I am as stubborn as an ass, doesn't mean I am not open-minded.

Read EVERYTHING of what I say, please. It saves you alot of trouble, and frustration.
-NoX

 

[Kwwres10]

reading your post just made me loose another 2% of my brain

The human brain works at 10% compacity when at rest. Now your at 8%? Ouch.