For Your Consideration

[TheOutkastDev]

You can call it what you want, but hating people for being different is harassment in my book.

Stop following me around just so you can whine about me. If I'm that annoying to you, put me on ignore. I'm not sure how many more times I'll have to tell you that. I come here to argue my beliefs in political threads. If that bothers you, go fuck yourself.



It was never acceptable for them to not assimilate. I already stated that families that moved here assimilated over time, which is what they do here. Imagine you moved to Europe after spending 40 years of your life in America. Would you find it logical for people to expect you to drop 40 years of traditions and learn their language instantly? I would understand it if they wanted me to try and become like them and fit in, but to force me to do everything exactly the way they wanted would be beyond me.

However, the part you can't get past is the part where people are free. I know that sucks, but if someone doesn't want to speak your language, there's not a whole lot you can do about it short of violating their freedom.

So when they come to MY country, instead of them assimilating into MY culture, I should assimilate to theirs so that we can interact? Or should we just exclude each other, promote cultural ignorance and exacerbate racial tensions?

Your argument is horrendously flawed.

 

[HellRazor]

the world is different now warangel; assimilation, especially learning the local language, is much more vital to creating a community that can grow together now that daily life is less contained into a single family.

I think "tolerance" is much more vital.

 

[HellRazor]

If you live in Australia, you may understand this a bit more, We have had groups of "Muslim Extremists", saying they WILL NOT abide by Australia's laws but by Islamic Sharia law.

Their right to say that is a fundamental part of a democracy.

As to peoples right to be different
Every person has a right to their own beliefs wether it be religion, politics, etc. BUT If you live in a particular country YOU Must follow that country's laws, or accept that you could be told to leave.

Breaking laws is something different. But targeting an entire ethnic group or religion is not only prejudicial, it will do nothing but promote the radical causes of the extremists that you're having the problems with. You are suggesting that these particular criminals should be given a seperate status based on their religious beliefs.

If you have citizens who are criminals, you don't tell them to leave or categorize them based on their beliefs or background, you deal with them just like you would any other criminals. You're basically saying that these people's religious beliefs exclude them from their basic rights as citizens of your country.

I honestly believe that in Australia, asking some of these people may should be asked to leave, But I also believe that if they have broken no laws, leave them alone

There is a fine line between democracy and fasicism.

 

[TMSTKSBK]

@WA: The sad part is that you agree with my actual point of view, you just don't realize it.

@HR: People that conciously refuse to obey the law while seeking to replace it with other law are known as traitors. Or rebels. Your choice. Australia is in no way required to betray its sovereignty by allowing these yahoos to set up their own system of law.

That's really what it boils down to. It's a simple affirmation of the law of the land in sum totum by Australia. Why is this so controversial? If this was Christians instead of Muslims, you'd all be like "Well, they deserved it anyway...". But, since it's Muslims you're all freaking out about hurting someone's feelings. Pansies.

It is *necessary* for peaceful cohabitation that immigrants assimilate a portion of their host culture. If the immigrants truly want to make a difference outside their enclaves, this generally means learning some of the host country's primary language, and some of its history. Immigrants that just want to set up their own country again inside a host country are not welcome to do so. The laws of the host country now apply, not their country of origin's laws.

I just got up. So this rambles a bit.

 

[HellRazor]

@HR: People that conciously refuse to obey the law while seeking to replace it with other law are known as traitors. Or rebels. Your choice.

If laws are being broken, why haven't the "traitors" been arrested?

After all, Australia has a system of laws used to govern its citizenry. It surely includes laws to act against individuals who refuse to obey the law, and/or seek to replace it with other law. The law of the country defines what a "traitor" or a "rebel" is and the proper legal methods of dealing with those individuals.

If Australia has a true democracy, and the criminal justice system is working, then the system should take care of those who are breaking the law.

Australia is in no way required to betray its sovereignty by allowing these yahoos to set up their own system of law.

Wow. That was quite a leap. I don't think I recall ever advocating that Australia "betray their sovereignty" or "allow them to set up their own system of law".

What I said was that under a democracy the citizens have the right to free speech and their own beliefs. Until they have broken a law they aren't guilty of anything. Once they have broken a law, there is a criminal justice system in place to enforce the law. Simple.

That's really what it boils down to. It's a simple affirmation of the law of the land in sum totum by Australia.

So the law of the land for Australian citizens is "if you don't think how I think, leave?"

In my mind, turning what is essentially a criminal issue into a "Muslim" issue only helps the cause of the extemists by playing into their "christians vs. muslims" rhetoric and driving people to their cause.

Why is this so controversial? If this was Christians instead of Muslims, you'd all be like "Well, they deserved it anyway...". But, since it's Muslims you're all freaking out about hurting someone's feelings. Pansies.

Based on what I read in this thread, the inference is that the government wants to regulate what certain individuals say and believe. It basically classifies a segment of Australian citizens who have not broken any laws as "extremists". It also makes the assumption that Islamic beliefs are in opposition to the law.

If people are breaking the law, by all means, arrest them immediately. That is why the law exists. You don't need to apply any other label aside from "criminal".

But if they have broken laws, then why have they not already been arrested? The answer is that they probably haven't broken any laws, but they are verbalizing an unpopular viewpoint.

When the government talks about targetting a segment of its population who haven't broken any laws and stifling their free speech, than that is not a democracy. The right to free speech is designed to protect unpopular views.

You see "Christians" and "Muslims". I see "People". Under a democracy, ALL of the citizens enjoy equal rights and due process under the law. Not just the "christians" or the "muslims". Not just the ones with popular viewpoints and opinions. ALL of them.

Throw away democracy and our rights as citizens and you have allowed the extremists to win.

It is *necessary* for peaceful cohabitation that immigrants assimilate a portion of their host culture. If the immigrants truly want to make a difference outside their enclaves, this generally means learning some of the host country's primary language, and some of its history. Immigrants that just want to set up their own country again inside a host country are not welcome to do so. The laws of the host country now apply, not their country of origin's laws.

I'm not aware of any immigrants that have set up their own country inside someone else's country. At least not without overthrowing the government.

 

[WarAngel]

So when they come to MY country, instead of them assimilating into MY culture, I should assimilate to theirs so that we can interact? Or should we just exclude each other, promote cultural ignorance and exacerbate racial tensions?

Your argument is horrendously flawed.

No, we should force them to take classes in English, we should force them to take classes in being American, and we should force them to interact with us whether they want to or not. At least that's what I'm told. Luckily, nothing like that will ever be implemented, so it may be "horrendously flawed", but your desire to violate someone's free will just because you find it inconvenient will be overriden for years to come.

 

[WarAngel]

@WA: The sad part is that you agree with my actual point of view, you just don't realize it.

I also agree with the "We didn't *ask* you to come here, you *wanted* to." concept.

I'd have no problem agreeing with what you said, except that you tacked that on. We have an open immigration policy, which means we have a constant invitation extended to anyone who wants to live here, as long as they meet a few backgrounds checks. We are asking people to come here just by having an open invitation to them. You wouldn't have a party with an open invitation and still claim that you didn't ask people to come, would you?

 

[Johabius]

All you do these days is look for threads to start fights in.

These days? WarAngel has always been that way.

 

[HellRazor]

These days? WarAngel has always been that way.

Well, his name isn't "PeaceFrog" after all.

 

[InOverMyHead]

The reason I posted "For Your Consideration" wasn't to put down any nationality or religion. I posted it because of all the illegals coming into the United States and demanding amnesty, living off the hard working LEGAL citizens of the United States and complaining that it's not enough, and refusing to learn the English Language.

I don't think it's right to be able to interact with them that I have to learn their language? "NO!" I'm not in their country. They are in my country.

Like that statement said, "Accept the country you Accepted." That means everything that goes with it. This is an English speaking country. Go back to the country you came from and come back the legal way. Take classes to become a legal citizen. And start paying taxes like everyone else. No one forced you to come to this country. You came on your own. If you don't like it here, stop complaining, and just leave. No one is forcing you to stay.

 

[TMSTKSBK]

Well, that begs the point that this is *not* technically an English-speaking country.

The majority of persons in this country do speak English, and it is the de facto official language. If, however, the majority of persons in this country were to speak a language other than English, that language would become the "official language".

Besides that niggling point, I agree with what you are saying. I have no problem with people coming to America legally. But if you're going to break the law to get here, I don't want you here. I want our laws enforced. If you are not here legally, you don't get to stay here, you don't get a job, you don't send money out of the country.

The thing about Mexican (and all other) ILLEGAL immigrants is just that -- by the fact that they are here, they are breaking the law.

Sure, our immigration system is cumbersome, slow, and expensive. Bureaucracy generally is (but that's a different story). However, it is *the* legal method of entry into this country. If you don't like it, deal with it.

 

[WarAngel]

I don't think it's right to be able to interact with them that I have to learn their language? "NO!" I'm not in their country. They are in my country.

So they HAVE to interact with you, whether they want to or not? What if I move to Australia to be a hermit, and don't want to interact with you even though I speak English? If they don't want to learn English at this point, why would you even want to speak to them?

@TMS: No argument there, and I hope I wasn't coming off that way. Laws are laws, whether you are a citizen of that country or not.

 

[TheOutkastDev]

No, we should force them to take classes in English, we should force them to take classes in being American, and we should force them to interact with us whether they want to or not. At least that's what I'm told. Luckily, nothing like that will ever be implemented, so it may be "horrendously flawed", but your desire to violate someone's free will just because you find it inconvenient will be overriden for years to come.

So your solution is indeed:

just exclude each other, promote cultural ignorance and exacerbate racial tensions

 

[WarAngel]

So your solution is indeed:

No, it's to tolerate people who are different instead of hating them for being such. I don't know why you guys keep talking about excluding people. If they want to participate, they will assimilate to the point that they can communicate with others. If they don't want to participate, they won't assimilate. As for the racial tension, that's created by your intolerance of others. The only tension will be created by your hate for those who don't assimilate. Don't want racial tension? Don't let difference piss you off.

 

[TheOutkastDev]

No, it's to tolerate people who are different instead of hating them for being such. I don't know why you guys keep talking about excluding people. If they want to participate, they will assimilate to the point that they can communicate with others. If they don't want to participate, they won't assimilate. As for the racial tension, that's created by your intolerance of others. The only tension will be created by your hate for those who don't assimilate. Don't want racial tension? Don't let difference piss you off.

I don't understand why you're projecting your hostility toward me, and using words like "your" and "you." If cultural difference pissed me off, I wouldn't be living in Texas now would I?

I just want them to learn English so that I can provide them with the same kind of customer service I give to everyone else.

 

[WarAngel]

I don't understand why you're projecting your hostility toward me, and using words like "your" and "you." If cultural difference pissed me off, I wouldn't be living in Texas now would I?

You would force them to do something against their will just because you dislike it. If we all just sat back and acted passive, assholes like you would take over, so I defend people. You can call it hostile if you like.

I just want them to learn English so that I can provide them with the same kind of customer service I give to everyone else.

Give me a break.

 

[TheOutkastDev]

You would force them to do something against their will just because you dislike it. If we all just sat back and acted passive, assholes like you would take over, so I defend people. You can call it hostile if you like.



Give me a break.

Get a job and you'll understand.

 

[WarAngel]

Get a job and you'll understand.

Irrelevant excuse for discrimination.

Don't work in a place where you're bound to meet people from all walks of life if you can't stand people who are different. Going to work in a Spanish-heavy area (or so you make it out to be) at a place where people HAVE to go while expecting all of the Spanish-speaking people to speak English is illogical.

 

[TMSTKSBK]

...or they could make an effort to assimilate and learn English...

 

[TheOutkastDev]

Irrelevant excuse for discrimination.

Don't work in a place where you're bound to meet people from all walks of life if you can't stand people who are different. Going to work in a Spanish-heavy area (or so you make it out to be) at a place where people HAVE to go while expecting all of the Spanish-speaking people to speak English is illogical.

It's totally relevant that you're unemployed. You have no experience in dealing with non-English speaking people in a professional setting - a setting where you have obligations to meet because you're being PAID.

I didn't go to a Spanish-heavy area, they came here. They must learn English. I will not assimilate their culture because they came to our country and refused to gain the most fundamental understanding of our culture.