Who's Your Candidate

[Ryan]

You do realize that they don't just hand that money over, don't you? I have been fighting with Social Security for 10 months now. In the meantime, we still have bills to pay, children to feed, rent to pay, food to buy, etc. I guess some of us just believe in helping out our fellow citizens all the time.

If you think I'm not a person who doesnt believe in helping people you're wrong.

I served this country in the military and have a disability that will be with me forever because of it. I donate money to 4 different families every month through a local charity that takes care of them because I can afford it.

But what I'm telling you is that it's MY MONEY. I should not have to put MY MONEY into some global slush fund that gets abused by greedy politicians to supposedly help people who need it.

Your argument for universal health care is like the original arguments for welfare and look where that got us.

I'm aware that Social Security is a fucking disaster now. My grandfather is in the same boat...

This isnt personal Johabius but you're taking it that way... I just dont think we should be giving out hand outs to ANYONE.

 

[Johabius]

If you think I'm not a person who doesnt believe in helping people you're wrong.

I served this country in the military and have a disability that will be with me forever because of it. I donate money to 4 different families every month through a local charity that takes care of them because I can afford it.

But what I'm telling you is that it's MY MONEY. I should not have to put MY MONEY into some global slush fund that gets abused by greedy politicians to supposedly help people who need it.

Your argument for universal health care is like the original arguments for welfare and look where that got us.

I'm aware that Social Security is a fucking disaster now. My grandfather is in the same boat...

This isnt personal Johabius but you're taking it that way... I just dont think we should be giving out hand outs to ANYONE.

I think you are confusing me with WarAngel, I'm not arguing FOR universal health care. I'm arguing that something needs to be done to fix what is broken. I don't know what we can do to fix the problem. I actually agree somewhat with Dr. Ron Paul's ideas on how to make health care more affordable for everyone.

And don't worry, no offense taken. This is just something I feel very strongly about, because I've experienced the "quantity over quality" attitude of some health care facilities first hand. I could sue the first hospital I went to, where the health care professionals told me: "You're fine, go back to work", but I chose not to because that just adds to the problem.

 

[Ryan]

I think you are confusing me with WarAngel, I'm not arguing FOR universal health care. I'm arguing that something needs to be done to fix what is broken. I don't know what we can do to fix the problem. I actually agree somewhat with Dr. Ron Paul's ideas on how to make health care more affordable for everyone.

And don't worry, no offense taken. This is just something I feel very strongly about, because I've experienced the "quantity over quality" attitude of some health care facilities first hand. I could sue the first hospital I went to, where the health care professionals told me: "You're fine, go back to work", but I chose not to because that just adds to the problem.

Sorry if I came off too strong I just get very heated about this.... I'm sick and tired of ending up with 30 - 40 cents of every dollar I make because of stupid taxes all over the place.

A Ron Paul would be good for America right now...

 

[Johabius]

Sorry if I came off too strong I just get very heated about this.... I'm sick and tired of ending up with 30 - 40 cents of every dollar I make because of stupid taxes all over the place.

A Ron Paul would be good for America right now...

I am too, and this is where I get into hot water with some of my more liberal friends. Believe me, if the Dem candidates keep disappointing me, I'm likely to cross party lines, and vote for Ron Paul. He's definitely a intriguing man, and a breath of fresh air compared to what we have been living with.

 

[Johabius]

Sorry if I came off too strong I just get very heated about this.... I'm sick and tired of ending up with 30 - 40 cents of every dollar I make because of stupid taxes all over the place.

A Ron Paul would be good for America right now...

I am too, and this is where I get into hot water with some of my more liberal friends. Believe me, if the Dem candidates keep disappointing me, I'm likely to cross party lines, and vote for Ron Paul. He's definitely a intriguing man, and a breath of fresh air compared to what we have been living with.

 

[Johabius]

Sorry if I came off too strong I just get very heated about this.... I'm sick and tired of ending up with 30 - 40 cents of every dollar I make because of stupid taxes all over the place.

A Ron Paul would be good for America right now...

I am too, and this is where I get into hot water with some of my more liberal friends. Believe me, if the Dem candidates keep disappointing me, I'm likely to cross party lines, and vote for Ron Paul. He's definitely a intriguing man, and a breath of fresh air compared to what we have been living with.

 

[HellRazor]

You're wrong...

If things would have taken a turn for the worst I would have worked harder... I would do whatever it takes to take care of myself and my family and that my friend is a fact.

I would rather DIE than not "make it" in life.

I hear what you are saying and in general I agree that there are opportunities in this country, and that most people can eke out a living at some level if they work at it.

But to try to pretend that all poor people are poor because they don't work hard or because they "choose" to work at Wal Mart instead of applying for VP of Sony Corporate HQ isn't very realistic. And barely scraping by doesn't equate to having adequate and affordable health care (hell, even earning a decent wage doesn't equate to that, what good is a decent wage if your health insurance costs put you back to poverty level)?

Many do die every day because they can't make it. And many do whatever it takes to take care of themselves and their families, our crime rate is a good indicator of that. It doesn't make you or I better than them, or make their lives less important than ours, and it doesn't even necessarily mean they worked at it any less than we did. Things are not always as simple as "work hard and you will be able to afford health care". Sometimes that is true, a lot of times it isn't. A lot of times life just doesn't work out that way. In fact, I'd bet that more often than not it doesn't work out that way. Most people who struggle to make ends meet do work hard, they don't live on the edge because they enjoy it.

It's tough enough for a person with a college degree to earn a decent wage (and many of THEM don't have health care either), let alone some poor black kid in the ghetto. Fortune 500 companies aren't exactly hiring bums off the street or poor people, they are hiring people who have nice suits and college degrees, and those degrees cost money and lots of it. When you have to choose between feeding your family this month or dropping a grand or more on a few lousey credit hours for yourself or one of your kids, guess which one wins...survival wins. And if you're BOTH fortunate enough AND work hard enough to actually save enough to pay for college without going under first, AND muscle your way through all the obstacles, and are then competing with the millions of other job seeking college graduates out there whose daddies had the means to pay for their college tuitions - maybe at THAT point your opportunities are finally "equal". But odds are strongly against most people who don't have the means and/or some outside form of support from ever making it to that point (assuming they even have the mental capacity to graduate to begin with).

Our fathers came up in a world where a guy with no college degree or training could get in on the ground floor of a company, work their way up, and be successful with a little hard work and elbow grease. Today, our fathers wouldn't even get an interview. Generally speaking, it just doesn't work that way any more above the "Wal Mart" level. Corporate America doesn't generally hire guys like our dads any more, chalk it up to all the opportunities.

As it stands, the military is the best opportunity some people have, and not everyone can qualify for the military.

Anyway, I guess I just don't see health care as being the same as welfare. I place more value on a human life than I do on a dollar bill and I think we have some small minimum obligation to our fellow citizens. I don't think medical care is a priviledge, it should be a right. Being healthy DOES ensure that people have better opportunities.

Communist thinking? I'd rather be thought of as a communist than to equate a person's individual worth as a human being with the type of job they are able to hold or their capacity (both mental and financial) to earn a degree. A Wal Mart employee's life has value too.

I am all in favor of paying a little more in taxes if it means that I can count on being able to see a doctor if I go bankrupt tomorrow, or if it means that my kids and their kids won't have their medical quality of life determined by how much money they can earn. And even more so if the wealthy, our businesses and corporations, and even the health care professionals themselves, can shoulder their share of the burden. I personally believe that the opportunities in this country also involve certain responsibilities for its citizens, and especially those who have grown wealthy from the opportunities they have here.

 

[shrundowr]

triple post = forum glitch?

 

[HellRazor]

II actually agree somewhat with Dr. Ron Paul's ideas on how to make health care more affordable for everyone.

This is what I'm talking about too. Not necessarily "free". But accessable and affordable.

 

[Johabius]

triple post = forum glitch?

Yup, I guess so. Could someone fix my extraneous posts please?

 

[HellRazor]

Sorry if I came off too strong I just get very heated about this.... I'm sick and tired of ending up with 30 - 40 cents of every dollar I make because of stupid taxes all over the place.

A Ron Paul would be good for America right now...

Debate = good. Even if I don't always agree I always appreciate hearing other viewpoints. Sometimes I even change my mind if the arguement is good enough.

 

[Ryan]

I hear what you are saying and in general I agree that there are opportunities in this country, and that most people can eke out a living at some level if they work at it.

But to try to pretend that all poor people are poor because they don't work hard or because they "choose" to work at Wal Mart instead of applying for VP of Sony Corporate HQ isn't very realistic. And barely scraping by doesn't equate to having adequate and affordable health care (hell, even earning a decent wage doesn't equate to that, what good is a decent wage if your health insurance costs put you back to poverty level)?

Many do die every day because they can't make it. And many do whatever it takes to take care of themselves and their families, our crime rate is a good indicator of that. It doesn't make you or I better than them, or make their lives less important than ours, and it doesn't even necessarily mean they worked at it any less than we did. Things are not always as simple as "work hard and you will be able to afford health care". Sometimes that is true, a lot of times it isn't. A lot of times life just doesn't work out that way. In fact, I'd bet that more often than not it doesn't work out that way. Most people who struggle to make ends meet do work hard, they don't live on the edge because they enjoy it.

It's tough enough for a person with a college degree to earn a decent wage (and many of THEM don't have health care either), let alone some poor black kid in the ghetto. Fortune 500 companies aren't exactly hiring bums off the street or poor people, they are hiring people who have nice suits and college degrees, and those degrees cost money and lots of it. When you have to choose between feeding your family this month or dropping a grand or more on a few lousey credit hours for yourself or one of your kids, guess which one wins...survival wins. And if you're BOTH fortunate enough AND work hard enough to actually save enough to pay for college without going under first, AND muscle your way through all the obstacles, and are then competing with the millions of other job seeking college graduates out there whose daddies had the means to pay for their college tuitions - maybe at THAT point your opportunities are finally "equal". But odds are strongly against most people who don't have the means and/or some outside form of support from ever making it to that point (assuming they even have the mental capacity to graduate to begin with).

Our fathers came up in a world where a guy with no college degree or training could get in on the ground floor of a company, work their way up, and be successful with a little hard work and elbow grease. Today, our fathers wouldn't even get an interview. Generally speaking, it just doesn't work that way any more above the "Wal Mart" level. Corporate America doesn't generally hire guys like our dads any more, chalk it up to all the opportunities.

As it stands, the military is the best opportunity some people have, and not everyone can qualify for the military.

Anyway, I guess I just don't see health care as being the same as welfare. I place more value on a human life than I do on a dollar bill and I think we have some small minimum obligation to our fellow citizens. I don't think medical care is a priviledge, it should be a right. Being healthy DOES ensure that people have better opportunities.

Communist thinking? I'd rather be thought of as a communist than to equate a person's individual worth as a human being with the type of job they are able to hold or their capacity (both mental and financial) to earn a degree. A Wal Mart employee's life has value too.

I am all in favor of paying a little more in taxes if it means that I can count on being able to see a doctor if I go bankrupt tomorrow, or if it means that my kids and their kids won't have their medical quality of life determined by how much money they can earn. And even more so if the wealthy, our businesses and corporations, and even the health care professionals themselves, can shoulder their share of the burden. I personally believe that the opportunities in this country also involve certain responsibilities for its citizens, and especially those who have grown wealthy from the opportunities they have here.

Since I'm actually at work I dont really have the time for another long ass post but I'll say this...

I never once said that I don't value a human life... again I put MY OWN LIFE on the line for people here. What I am saying is that people CHOOSE their own destiny and it's not as simple as applying for wal-mart or the vp of sony of america but it is as simple as do I go to school today or go gang bang or do I go get a job or sit at home and play WOW.

The end goal may not get you a VP job some where but it will get you a job. Choosing to work at wal-mart is a death sentence they do not provide health care for employees which is why NONE of us should support them. Every time you walk into wal-mart and buy something YOU are supporting a company who goes against everything you're bitching about.

I never shop at wal-mart and never will. My father has worked for a grocery chain for nearly 30 years and that's the only place I go.

I'm sure you've spent money at wal-mart though the last time I read figures on it 95% of American's have a wal-mart within 5 miles of their home. I have no desire to go into one because in my opinion they are the bane of America. They use sweatshops overseas to produce items, they drive companies in America out of business and they dont provide health care for their employees.... yet I bet you've shopped there.

You're telling me that you'd give more taxes to help people get health care... instead why dont you just spend some time volunteering somewhere like I do. It's much easier to help people get on their feet and learn skills than it is to just keep paying for them to get shit.

I'm tired of this argument...

Natural Selection is at work here... if you don't get off your dead ass and get a job in life you'll end up poor with no health care. If you do get up and work you can make it in life... we have millionare janitors that worked at Microsoft and Google.

We have people who have started at the bottom and made it to the top...

I myself do not have a college degree but I've made it... I make very good money and live a great life that I wouldn't trade for the world. If I can do it so can every other able bodied person. I had no special training or special gift... I just worked my ass off, started at the bottom and worked my way up.

I'm so tired of the argument that the "underprivileged" cannot make it... it's bullshit and they can.

Quit gang banging, doing drugs, partying and in general wasting time and get out there and get a fucking job... work hard like the rest of the productive citizens of this country and make something of yourself. This shit is out of control and people like you coddeling them are supporting it.

 

[HellRazor]

I never once said that I don't value a human life... again I put MY OWN LIFE on the line for people here. What I am saying is that people CHOOSE their own destiny and it's not as simple as applying for wal-mart or the vp of sony of america but it is as simple as do I go to school today or go gang bang or do I go get a job or sit at home and play WOW.

I was trying to make a point but I didn't mean to make it sound like you didn't value life - sorry about that.

I agree that kids need to stay in school. But at the same time, there are a lot of high school graduates with no health care.

Graduating high school is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM you need to do to have even the smallest chance of being successful. No HS diploma = no future in most cases (unless you are a very lucky or ingenious person). Unfortunately kids also have poor judgement (which is why they are kids and not adults) and combine that with bad parenting and there is a recipe for a wasted life.

I guess what I am saying is, even that kid who made the bad choices should be able to afford health care.

The end goal may not get you a VP job some where but it will get you a job. Choosing to work at wal-mart is a death sentence they do not provide health care for employees which is why NONE of us should support them. Every time you walk into wal-mart and buy something YOU are supporting a company who goes against everything you're bitching about.

I would be in favor of legislation that required businesses that earned above a certain income level to provide health insurance to employees. Not for free, but at an affordable rate. At least, if it could be done without breaking businesses or the economy. I'm not smart enough on all the potential issues and outcomes but it sounds reasonable to me on the surface. Lots of businesses have very good health plans so I think it can be done.

I never shop at wal-mart and never will. My father has worked for a grocery chain for nearly 30 years and that's the only place I go.

Yeah, and actually the businesses like Wal Mart (which hire people at the lowest wage while exploiting loopholes to pay out minimum benefits) are part of the problem!

I'm sure you've spent money at wal-mart though the last time I read figures on it 95% of American's have a wal-mart within 5 miles of their home. I have no desire to go into one because in my opinion they are the bane of America. They use sweatshops overseas to produce items, they drive companies in America out of business and they dont provide health care for their employees.... yet I bet you've shopped there.

I have, but not often. I honestly avoid Wal Mart because I am not crazy about their business practices either. When I lived in the U.S. I usually shopped either at local grocery stores or at Fred Meiers. Of course, over here in Germany they have kicked all the Wal Marts out, so I don't have to worry about it

I had to hit a Wal Mart during a recent trip to the States for some Army training simply because they were the only store within miles - which is how they like it I'm sure.

You're telling me that you'd give more taxes to help people get health care... instead why dont you just spend some time volunteering somewhere like I do. It's much easier to help people get on their feet and learn skills than it is to just keep paying for them to get shit.

That helps on an individual level, which is good, but it does nothing to solve the problem of affordable health care on a national level.

I'm tired of this argument...

Natural Selection is at work here... if you don't get off your dead ass and get a job in life you'll end up poor with no health care. If you do get up and work you can make it in life... we have millionare janitors that worked at Microsoft and Google.

Pray that the laws of natural selection never turn on you or someone you love, because it can happen to anyone, randomly, and at any instant.

Lots of people, both with jobs and without jobs, can't afford health care and have no means of support or assistance. We should let people get sick and die when we have the ability to help them because it's just natural selection? We could apply the same arguement to victims of traffic accidents (they didn't have to get into that car, that was their choice).

We have people who have started at the bottom and made it to the top...

I myself do not have a college degree but I've made it... I make very good money and live a great life that I wouldn't trade for the world. If I can do it so can every other able bodied person. I had no special training or special gift... I just worked my ass off, started at the bottom and worked my way up.

You're taking your personal experiences and world view, and are applying it to every person in every situation across the entire country. Not every person is you, not every situation is like yours, the cards don't always get dealt the same way for each person. And it has nothing to do with whether or not they should be able to afford health care, everyone should be able to afford it.

I'm so tired of the argument that the "underprivileged" cannot make it... it's bullshit and they can.

Quit gang banging, doing drugs, partying and in general wasting time and get out there and get a fucking job... work hard like the rest of the productive citizens of this country and make something of yourself. This shit is out of control and people like you coddeling them are supporting it.

So basically, if someone is poor, you think it is because they do drugs, gang bang, or refuse to work? That's a VERY small part of the overall population of poor and underpriviledged people (but due to media exposure, probably the most visible aside from homeless people living in boxes on the sidewalk).

You're equating inability to afford health care with refusal to work. I'm saying that even people in low-to-mid income jobs should be able to afford insurance. Most people in this country don't have health insurance or are working for a company that doesn't provide coverage. That's not even considering people who CAN'T work and who have no families, should we just cart those guys off to the morgue because life dealt them a bad hand?

But again I don't mean a free ride. I'm talking about finding a solution that can take care of people while also requiring them to pay into it, with some provisions for people who can't pay into it for certain types of illnesses and injuries. No one should have to die within 10 feet of a doctor's office in this country.

 

[HellRazor]

Atm about 50 it will jump to 90 soon but, thats ok considering my medications would cost about 4000 a month without insurance.

That's pretty good! That's more than reasonable if its decent coverage.

The $300 a month Ryan quoted is reasonable too. I pay a little more than that but its family coverage.

I don't consider the $1000 a month Ryan pays himself for private insurance for a single person to be affordable by the average person working a low-to-mid level income job. Especially if you live in a high cost area.

A lot of people aren't so fortunate to work for a business that offers a health plan, which is my point. Imagine what that $4,000 a month tab would be like without the health plan.

 

[WarAngel]

Ryan, you have to explain economically/politically/socially why we shouldn't have this. I've seen the argument thrown off as "it's welfare". That's not an argument, that's a cop-out. Not a SINGLE substantial argument, which is weak.

Oh, well I guess you did say you're tired of paying taxes, but have you stopped to think about what you're saying? You pay for things either way, and you'd likely end up paying less overall for a government system than you'd pay for healthcare in taxes. And that's what I don't understand about a lot of arguments about tax and government. People argue against taxes that actually end up saving them money and provide better services than they can currently achieve because it will cost them in taxes, as if paying thousands more than you need to in private fees would be better than paying a few hundred.

 

[HellRazor]

Out of curiosity, what is Ron Paul's plan that someone mentioned?

 

[Johabius]

Out of curiosity, what is Ron Paul's plan that someone mentioned?

Here is what he thought needed to be passed.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]

The following are bills Congress should pass to reduce health care costs and leave more money in the pockets of families:

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]HR 3075 provides truly comprehensive health care reform by allowing families to claim a tax credit for the rising cost of health insurance premiums. With many families now spending close to $1000 or even more for their monthly premiums, they need real tax relief – including a dollar-for-dollar credit for every cent they spend on health care premiums – to make medical care more affordable. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]HR 3076 is specifically designed to address the medical malpractice crisis that threatens to drive thousands of American doctors – especially obstetricians – out of business. The bill provides a dollar-for-dollar tax credit that permits consumers to purchase "negative outcomes" insurance prior to undergoing surgery or other serious medical treatments. Negative outcomes insurance is a novel approach that guarantees those harmed receive fair compensation, while reducing the burden of costly malpractice litigation on the health care system. Patients receive this insurance payout without having to endure lengthy lawsuits, and without having to give away a large portion of their award to a trial lawyer. This also drastically reduces the costs imposed on physicians and hospitals by malpractice litigation. Under HR 3076, individuals can purchase negative outcomes insurance at essentially no cost.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]HR 3077 makes it more affordable for parents to provide health care for their children. It creates a $500 per child tax credit for medical expenses and prescription drugs that are not reimbursed by insurance. It also creates a $3,000 tax credit for dependent children with terminal illnesses, cancer, or disabilities. Parents who are struggling to pay for their children's medical care, especially when those children have serious health problems or special needs, need every extra dollar. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]HR 3078 is commonsense, compassionate legislation for those suffering from cancer or other terminal illnesses. The sad reality is that many patients battling serious illnesses will never collect Social Security benefits – yet they continue to pay into the Social Security system. When facing a medical crisis, those patients need every extra dollar to pay for medical care, travel, and family matters. HR 3078 waives the employee portion of Social Security payroll taxes (or self-employment taxes) for individuals with documented serious illnesses or cancer. It also suspends Social Security taxes for primary caregivers with a sick spouse or child. There is no justification or excuse for collecting Social Security taxes from sick individuals who literally are fighting for their lives.[/FONT]

 

[Ortanith]

Yeah welfare is for lazy people why cant those lazy bastards with something such as multiple sclerosis work there just being lazy.

Its not like if we cut what welfare we had that there would be a ton more homeless people but we could always build relocation camps so we do not have to look at them.

 

[HellRazor]

Here is what he thought needed to be passed.

Thanks man!

Most of it looks pretty good on the surface. I don't think it will solve the problem but they are some positive steps in the right direction. Tax credits are the LEAST we can do.

All except for HR 3076. That one is flakey. Now we need to have "Negative Outcomes Insurance" on top of health insurance to protect us from negligent physicians? It doesn't take into account that a physician who loses a malpractice lawsuit is being held accountable for professional negligence. They shouldn't be protected from their own negligence, that has more bad ramifications than good in my opinion.

 

[WarAngel]

Negligence is a very real problem, though it's been treated by a lot of people as if it's just people trying to hammer home a lot of money. It takes a lot of evidence and a good court case to win that kind of money from a doctor. And I think that type of insurance stems from people thinking that it's just the "hammer home" choice.