For Your Consideration

[shrundowr]

I'm not against that, because it's a victimless crime. I.e., I would say that illegal immigration isn't a crime at all, no matter what black letter law says. It's more of a tort, kind of like a traffic ticket. Nobody calls someone who has gotten a speeding ticket a "criminal".

Well I do think there should be laws against illegal immigration, you know to prevent just anyone (ie, a terrorist, 3 time murderer or something) from coming in, but the laws in place now do absolutely nothing good for anyone. But you are right in that most of it is a victimless crime, unlike what some of these people are saying.

 

[HellRazor]

Actually, some of the justification behind the current immigration reform proposals (with amnesty, etc.) is that it helps identify the ones who are just here to work so that law enforcement can concentrate on the relatively few illegal immigrants who actually ARE criminals.

 

[Courageous]

Well I do think there should be laws against illegal immigration,....

Oh, certainly. I just can't get all excited about an illegal immigrant, about the same way I can't get all excited about someone breaking the speed limit. You're not supposed to do that, but doing so doesn't make you a bad person.

I'm reminded of a quote by Ayn Rand. She said that immigrants, after a fashion, were better than natives; all a native had to do to be here was be born... an immigrant had to WANT to be here. Interesting perspective.

C//

 

[shrundowr]

Actually, some of the justification behind the current immigration reform proposals (with amnesty, etc.) is that it helps identify the ones who are just here to work so that law enforcement can concentrate on the relatively few illegal immigrants who actually ARE criminals.

But see people like InOverMyHead care more about the majority of the ones "stealing our jobs" than the few actual criminals. In actuality, they arent stealing anything. Companies here, in America give them jobs, knowing they can get away with paying them less for more work, knowing its illegal, and knowing that no matter what, they won't get in trouble for it.

These people risk getting shot at to come here since our government makes getting in legally so difficult, they endure shitty working conditions, shitty pay, and shitty hours to make a living once they are here, which mind you, might still be better than what they had back where they were from, not to mention all of the steps they have to go through to keep from getting caught and departed.
I swear, these people are so evil and criminal we should just shoot them!!!!!11onenietyone!!1 After all its our country, not theirs, right?

And who cares about the filthy rich, oxford educated, son of a south american drug lord who comes here to help distribute his daddy's drugs around and has people killed in the streets, etc. After all, he came in legally, he's no criminal!

Oh, certainly. I just can't get all excited about an illegal immigrant, about the same way I can't get all excited about someone breaking the speed limit. You're not supposed to do that, but doing so doesn't make you a bad person.

I'm reminded of a quote by Ayn Rand. She said that immigrants, after a fashion, were better than natives; all a native had to do to be here was be born... an immigrant had to WANT to be here. Interesting perspective.

Well yes, but what I was getting at is if legal immigration were fixed to where it was actually fair, then the ones that got in illegally would be having something to hide, ie a criminal record, in which case they should be punished

 

[Flats]

We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society .. LEARN THE LANGUAGE!

I don't feel like getting into this conversation too much. I just saw it but i guess i could try to calm things down a bit since some of you are or look i dunno how to describe it but look at the quote......

Lebanese isn't a language! Lebanon speaks Arabic! So therefore Lebanese is an accent!

 

[HellRazor]

The funny thing is, most people from the other backgrounds she listed can speak both their own language AND English.

 

[Courageous]

Here is San Diego, by far the most recent Mexican immigrants that I have personally met (and I have met many) cannot speak English (very well at all, i.e., they know "dig," and "plant", and so forth). I don't have any issue with this, mind... other than, perhaps, thinking it would be in their best interests to learn to do so.

C//

 

[shrundowr]

Like I said before... We need to stop printing the instruction booklets for shit sold here in Spanish and every language under the sun. That only serves to diminish the need for immigrants (legal or otherwise) to learn English. I'm not saying they should forget their own language and culture, but there is a need for everyone in the country to speak a common language.. most of the country speaks English, so that should be it. tbh, it would help them alot more than us.

What if their house is on fire and none of the firefighters speak Spanish?
Mother tells the firefighter that one of her children is still in the hoiuse, firefighter cant understand a word she says. Why should the responsibility be on him?

 

[HellRazor]

On the other hand, if more Americans spoke more than one language, their job prospects would be dramatically increased and their skills would be marketable worldwide.

 

[shrundowr]

Well thats too true, but applies more to profitability than practicality and survivability.. what if its not Spanish? what if its Afrikaans.. theres gobs of languages, is every American supposed to know every single language in case they need to communicate with someone who immigrated here and didn't bother to learn the language?

 

[Flats]

The funny thing is, most people from the other backgrounds she listed can speak both their own language AND English.

Who is a she?

 

[shrundowr]

InOverMyHead, the author of the thread, and who thankfully, seems to have left the thread.

 

[Courageous]

Like I said before... We need to stop printing the instruction booklets for shit sold here in Spanish and every language under the sun.

I think this remark is well-intentioned, but ill-informed. Have you met a Mexican worker, here in the US, who knows little-to-no English? Their prospects are poor. They're paid poorly. Learning English is the gateway to more opportunity, more money, more everything... and they know this in a more deeply visceral way than any of us natives ever will. No additional incentive is required. The ones that don't learn much English are on the generational freight train. They have given up for themselves, and put all their hopes in their children. And for some, that's the reality and all they really can hope for.

C//

 

[Malaperth]

I bought a really cheap piece of furniture from Walmart once. Ya know, the 'you put it together' stuff? Well, I'm familiar with most of the ways they have to secure the pieces. This one, I wasn't... It did contain instructions. The instructions were in 4 (count them, four) languages. ALL the languages were of some oriental variety that I have NO capability to comprehend

 

[InOverMyHead]

Lebanese isn't a language! Lebanon speaks Arabic! So therefore Lebanese is an accent!

You're quite right, Flats. Lebanon speaks Arabic. That was my bad.

I bought a really cheap piece of furniture from Walmart once. Ya know, the 'you put it together' stuff? Well, I'm familiar with most of the ways they have to secure the pieces. This one, I wasn't... It did contain instructions. The instructions were in 4 (count them, four) languages. ALL the languages were of some oriental variety that I have NO capability to comprehend

That's because the cheap furniture you bought from Walmart was made in China and the wrong directions were more than likely put in your box.

That must've been quite some time ago. I've handled employee records for almost 10yrs now and it's impossible for an employer to pull taxes for FICA , SS, etc., multiple times, in a single pay cycle, on the same SS#.

It was less than five years ago and I have no idea how my husband's employer was paying them.

I'm going to say it again for dramatic effect. Immigrants aren't the problem, Illegal Immigrants are the problem. If people from Europe and Asia can come over legally, then so can the border hoppers. I'm all for immigration, just not illegally. license.

Very Well Said:

InOverMyHead, the author of the thread, and who thankfully, seems to have left the thread.

Sheeeee's Baaaack!!

 

[InOverMyHead]

I was reading the newspaper last Wednesday and on the front page was a picture of an ex-illegal waving the American Flag. She along with 799 other ex-illegals had just become American Citizens in Chandler, Arizona.

She said that she came to this country illegally 20 years ago. The last five years she had been working on becoming an American citizen and she finally did it. More Power To Her. I wish her and her family nothing but the best.

In an article next to that was a couple from Canada that have been living in Lake Havasu City illegally for 15 years. The wife said that if the bill passes they will probably have to go back to Canada because they can't afford to pay the penalties.

If they love this country so much and the state of Arizona, then why on God's green earth didn't they work on becoming legal citizens for the past 15 years? Why aren't they doing it now?

 

[shrundowr]

so basically... your tactic for any thread is to just bring new irrelevant information to it instead of countering the arguments against you? Youve done the sam,e in the abortion thread.

 

[HellRazor]

If they love this country so much and the state of Arizona, then why on God's green earth didn't they work on becoming legal citizens for the past 15 years? Why aren't they doing it now?

I imagine it is fear of being arrested and deported. Which is a pretty valid fear. In the absence of an amnesty, to come forward to apply for citizenship while already living in the country illegally would be taking a big chance.

 

[HellRazor]

so basically... your tactic for any thread is to just bring new irrelevant information to it instead of countering the arguments against you? Youve done the sam,e in the abortion thread.

AB - A lot of people seem to debate in this fashion. When one arguement proves to be unsupportable, instead of reconsidering the viewpoint based on the new information, or argueing as to why that new information is wrong or irrelevent, they go looking for a totally different arguement to support their belief (which sometimes bears no relation to any of the other arguements). It leads me to believe that some of the opinions are an emotional response that aren't based on logic (i.e. they will believe what they believe no matter what evidence or arguements are presented).

Maybe this is one of those "men are from mars, women are from venus" things (although plenty of men base their opinions on emotion and bias too).

 

[shrundowr]

ahh yes, we men are too proud to cut and run we'll sit and argue no matter how clear it is that we're wrong. Perfect reason to have a woman president.